Adam_F Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Hi, I'll appreciate any insight on the matter below :) So we played this gig yesterday in a small club, the PA was nothing special really and we had no time to properly set up the sound. The end result was obviously far from satisfactory, which led to an argument between our guitarist and myself. The thing is I plugged my bass and Helix into one channel of the mixer, and the vocals were of course run through another channel. Now our guitarist insists that this is not the way it should ever be done and that the bass and vocals are not supposed to be run through same speakers. Of course I disagree with that, but I can't find any way to convince him that it's perfectly alright to run bass and vocals together through the mixer into the same set of speakers. He insists he's right so vehemently that in the end I've begun to have doubts whether perhaps he is right after all... So the question is - am I right, or is he? Any input will be appreciated, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd2rk Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 You're both right. If the PA is low wattage and has little crappy speakers you don't want to mix the bass with the vocals, you won't get the best of either. If you've got a high powered system, WTH does he think is happening on a big stage with everybody mic'd? However, at a small club (size is relative), you should probably be using a bass amp and letting the small club PA be dedicated to the vocals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam_F Posted January 18, 2020 Author Share Posted January 18, 2020 The PA wasn't much, but it was the sort of thing you might expect in a small club which sometimes organises live gigs - the mixer was a Lexicon, I don't know what model, with 8 channels and all the stuff like sends, returns and effects, and the speakers were 2x12 cabs which looked like a kind of real thing, not your average home hi fi system... Sorry I can't provide more details... I managed to find out what the mixer is - it's a Soundcraft Spirit Powerstation 600. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd2rk Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Like I said, size of the club matters as much as the type of PA. In a small club, the instruments least in need of PA support are the drums and bass. The instruments most in need of restraint are the guitar and drums. It's all about balance. The ability to attain that balance in any given venue situation is a sign of a band's professionalism. Nobody can say what you should have done at that gig, but what seems most obvious is that you need to have a band meeting devoted to how to handle this sort of thing in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunedinDragon Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 Personally if it's a small club and especially if it's an older PA and loudspeaker setup, I'll ONLY put vocals through the PA. Typically stage gear is more than enough to fill the room so the PA is irrelevant. However, that also means everyone needs to be disciplined with their volume or it will be a disaster. This is also one of the reasons I always have my Helix hooked up on stage to a FRFR speaker in the backline so there's no problem supplementing a PA like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam_F Posted January 18, 2020 Author Share Posted January 18, 2020 I don't even have an amp at the moment, so I figured the Helix and the house PA would have been more than enough for a place like that... I'm totally in favour of having a band meeting the discuss the problem, however the guitarist insists there is no problem to discuss - the only thing he has to say is that the PA is not supposed to handle the bass guitar and vocals at the same time so the root of the problem is the fact that I plugged the Helix into the mixer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd2rk Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 2 hours ago, Adam_F said: I don't even have an amp at the moment, so I figured the Helix and the house PA would have been more than enough for a place like that... I'm totally in favour of having a band meeting the discuss the problem, however the guitarist insists there is no problem to discuss - the only thing he has to say is that the PA is not supposed to handle the bass guitar and vocals at the same time so the root of the problem is the fact that I plugged the Helix into the mixer... IMO. YMMV. You need to do two things ASAP. 1) get a bass amp. 2) decide how much you like being in a band where you’re not respected. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillman1312 Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 9 hours ago, Adam_F said: I'm totally in favour of having a band meeting the discuss the problem, however the guitarist insists there is no problem to discuss - the only thing he has to say is that the PA is not supposed to handle the bass guitar and vocals at the same time so the root of the problem is the fact that I plugged the Helix into the mixer... I don't have the best answer for you and agree with what has already been said before (i.e..... it depends), but it seems you also have a communication/co-operation issue going on in your band. Solving that problem with buying gear might not be the way forward ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam_F Posted January 19, 2020 Author Share Posted January 19, 2020 Indeed, the communication situation is not perfect, and we'll have to deal with it one way or another, and I really do appreciate your insights and I mean absolutely no offence, but I just wanted to consult the technical issue whether there is anything wrong with running the Helix into the FOH together with vocals... :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunedinDragon Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 11 hours ago, Adam_F said: I don't even have an amp at the moment, so I figured the Helix and the house PA would have been more than enough for a place like that... I'm totally in favour of having a band meeting the discuss the problem, however the guitarist insists there is no problem to discuss - the only thing he has to say is that the PA is not supposed to handle the bass guitar and vocals at the same time so the root of the problem is the fact that I plugged the Helix into the mixer... To be quite candid, I'm not sure you would solve anything by having a band meeting. Having run live sound since the 70's it doesn't sound to me like there's anyone in the group that has enough expertise to authoratatively resolve this kind of technical issue anyway. In most decent PA situations this type of situation is resolved by isolating very low frequencies on the bass and drums to the subwoofer. In most modern situations the main mixer outputs first go to the subwoofer which then sends the signal to the main front speakers using a high pass filter (generally 120 Hz), meaning that the bass and low frequency drums still go through the mains, but their very low frequencies are isolated to the subwoofer so they don't interfere with the higher frequencies in the mains. I personally go a step further and put high pass filters on everything other than the bass and drums. It has nothing to do with the Helix. I do it the same way with a bass amp which is NEVER mic'd and only uses a direct line outputt into the mixer. Those are the technical details from a live sound reinforcement perspective. What this means is there's no reason you (and the drums) shouldn't go direct to the FOH as long as the FOH has a setup similar to what I described. It also means that your best and simplest approach would be to get a bass amp or FRFR. If the PA has an appropriate setup such as I described you can send the XLR output from your Helix to the board and send your 1/4" output to the bass amp or FRFR. If the PA doesn't have an appropriate setup, you can simply rely on the bass amp or speaker to fill the room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam_F Posted January 19, 2020 Author Share Posted January 19, 2020 Yes, you're absolutely right - none of us has enough expertise to settle this matter... And thank you for the lot of useful info! Sadly I don't think we can reliably count on having the possibility to use a PA system with subwoofers and filters... If we play in venues which have all this gear - they will usually have somebody to run it. So the problem is when we play in a little bar or club, like 50-100 people, where they usually just have a mixer and a pair of more or less standard cabs, and more often than not no competent person to set it up - and we have to deal with all the technical issues ourselves. Do you think it would be better if I didn't use any cab sim on the Helix when plugging into the PA? Or perhaps you could give me some advice regarding specifically the setup of the Helix itself to make it more workable? I think what I'm struggling to say is - is it possible to sort of transfer some of the things you mention above to the Helix itself if the PA doesn't offer such possibilities? Between an amp and an FRFR I'd rather go for the latter - I could use it as well when I play the guitar and keys - which doesn't happen too often, but still it would be a more versatile solution. Can you recommend any FRFR? Is it even possible / does it make sense to get one which doesn't cost more than, say, around 300-350 dollars? Or perhaps could you give me some general guidelines on how to go about the overwhelming task of making the choice? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunedinDragon Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 5 hours ago, Adam_F said: Do you think it would be better if I didn't use any cab sim on the Helix when plugging into the PA? ------Absolutely not. A significant amount of your tone comes from cabinet and mic selection/placement. Or perhaps you could give me some advice regarding specifically the setup of the Helix itself to make it more workable? -----The most workable situation in a small bar with a limited PA is to confine your vocals to the PA and not put instruments through the PA and just depend on stage sound through either amps or (in the case of a Helix) a FRFR. You should have no problem filling a small club with your stage equipment. I think what I'm struggling to say is - is it possible to sort of transfer some of the things you mention above to the Helix itself if the PA doesn't offer such possibilities? ----- Not really. You want the full range of your Bass not a cut down version. Just get a decent FRFR and use your stage sound and you won't have a problem. On a more capable PA you can go through the PA and let it manage the low end filtering. Between an amp and an FRFR I'd rather go for the latter - I could use it as well when I play the guitar and keys - which doesn't happen too often, but still it would be a more versatile solution. Can you recommend any FRFR? -------I'd probably opt for a 15 inch speaker. A good buddy of mine who is a keyboard player runs into the same issue on his lower range as you would on your bass uses an EV ZLX-15P which sounds great and is a very capable FRFR. Is it even possible / does it make sense to get one which doesn't cost more than, say, around 300-350 dollars? ---lots of folks do. I'm not a fan of taking a premium modeler and putting it though a bargain basement speaker myself. But it might work for your purposes. Or perhaps could you give me some general guidelines on how to go about the overwhelming task of making the choice? ;) -----When it comes to FRFR speakers, you tend to get what you pay for. The FRFR market generally breaks down into 4 basic segments: Low end: Basic operations with very little in the way of DSP contouring, Sometimes has pretty decent power, but tone is pretty much just passable. Mid Range: These are slimmed down versions of premium range designs with a bit less power and volume, but very capable DSP tuning options and is still good enough volume for most small to mid-size club situations. This is where the EV ZLX series fits as well as the QSC CP series and the Yamaha DBR series. Premum: These are higher power and fully tunable speakers such as the QSC K.2 series or the Yamaha DXR series. Concert: A completely different breed of speakers driven by external DSP amplifiers used in concert situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd2rk Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 If you've done much research on modern bass amps (if you're not on Talkbass yet go there now), you know that a lot of bass players are using 250-500watt amps through single 12" speaker cabs for the kind of venues you're describing. As an all purpose affordable solution, I'm using a HR FRFR112 (<>$300). It's WAY loud and my bass sounds as good through it and Helix as any of the small bass amps I've tried lately. If you follow my advice over to Talkbass and search for variations on "affordable bass amp" you'll get lots of suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam_F Posted January 19, 2020 Author Share Posted January 19, 2020 2 hours ago, DunedinDragon said: 1 hour ago, rd2rk said: Thanks for all the advice! Truth be told I was kinda hoping I wouldn't have to lug around too much heavy stuff, especially to such small gigs, but well, I'll have to reconsider... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd2rk Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 Most modern 1-12/2-10 combo amps weigh around 30-40 lbs. My FRFR112 weighs 38 lbs. The GK MB210-II (500 watts) weighs 39 lbs. (not cheap though - $900). Fender Rumble 500 (2-10) weighs 36 lbs. ($600). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caledoneus Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 b/c... every venue has entirely separate PA systems for the bassist and the vocalists. They never run through the same PA... ever... lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam_F Posted February 8, 2020 Author Share Posted February 8, 2020 Well, we played another little gig, I used the Helix into PA again, the PA had no subwoofer nor crossover - and it sounded good, maybe not perfect, but really good. As far as I'm concerned - it goes to show that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with plugging the Helix straight into PA, as long as there is a little time to get to know the PA and decently set it up. Once again - thank you all for your input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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