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OrangeBlackstar

Helix High cut at 7k

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Hello, 

 

I recently noticed in my daw that there are absolutely no frequencies showing up above 7k in my analyzer. I'm not sure why this is, there aren't any plugins in the daw set to have a high cut at that value. I looked through my patch on the helix that I recorded the track with block by block, and there are a few high cuts set (redundant, I know) but the lowest they ever get is 14k. My global EQ is off, and even if it was on when I recorded the track, the high cut was set to 20k. The helix doesn't sound terrible because of this, however it is causing me problems further down the line in mixing due to the overall frequency spectrum not having enough energy in the higher regions. Is this something the helix just does automatically? I used to have an hx stomp and one day while recording with a friend they pointed out that there was a high cut at 7k, which I thought was strange, but at the time I didn't pay it much attention. Now I've realized that it was indeed an issue. Any tips on this? Any and all advice is appreciated. 

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Like ZERO frequencies above 7k? A straight, vertical line at 7k? That would be really weird and definitely not normal. Does the interface offer mixer features and have a channel EQ engaged?

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You've probably already checked this, but if your using stock cabs, with the last update they have a high cut at 8k, seems weird that would give you nothing above 7k though.  As that isn't the situation with mine. 

 

Is there a different global setting that is on the input that lets you cut it down that far?  either on the input block of the preset or globall?

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Pretty close to a vertical line, I don’t have my computer on me right now but from what I remember it’s like a steep slope that ends at about 7k. I mean, there might be a little bit over 7k, like 7010hz or something minuscule like that, but for the sake of simplicity it’s about a straight cut at 7k. My mixer in my daw (logic) has a channel eq (which has the analyzer that I’m observing). Even if I eq the frequencies above 7k up by like 24db there’s really nothing showing up.

 

As far as the input block goes, I haven’t checked if there happens to be a cut on that, so I’ll give that a look. 

 

Im using third party IRs by 3 sigma audio. I’m running the same IR twice (on different paths though so like a full stack) and each IR has a cut at 14k. 

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and it sounds fine?

 

 

Is it possible one of the split/merge sections has something weird with it.  don't remember the options for those.

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I don’t recall the options for split/merge so I’ll check it out when I get home.

 

Another thought that occurred to me is the reverb block- I have a high cut at like 3.7k on that, but the mix is only at like 15%. Is this something that can affect the overall frequency as drastically as I’ve explained it? 

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I doubt there is a "great" guitar sound out there with much information above 7K.  It's well outside the range of what we expect of a guitar and amp.

Have a look on the Celestion speaker curves.  Getting absolutely nothing though is strange.

The cut on reverb only affects the reverb, not the direct signal.

If you are pushing frequencies above 7K, it's going to sound harsh.

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There is nothing to desire above 5.5/6Khz for guitar speakers, apart hiss and noise.

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Whether there's useful information above 7kHz in a typical electric guitar signal should be completely irrelevant to the subject as the Helix is meant to be able to process plenty of other signals, as well (in fact, it's meant to be able to process/record any signals), so it should rather be fullrange.

Having said that, mine is, I just checked. All signals are passed through absolutely fine (connected another interfaces I/Os around the Helix and sent some pink/white noise through it).

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I would suggest to backup everything then do a reset and make sure you select an option that resets globals. Then before restoring your back up try a factory preset with your DAW or create a blank preset with a mic input and see what your DAW says. If it looks OK then restore and see if it is OK. If restoring brings the issue back then you know it's probably globals or a rogue patch causing issues. 

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On 2/8/2020 at 4:18 AM, PierM said:

There is nothing to desire above 5.5/6Khz for guitar speakers, apart hiss and noise.

That's sort of true, and sort of not. For live use, yeah, not much useful up there, for recording, the 5-8khz range comes in handy for adding "air" with guitars, especially in dense arrangements or when you're playing with keys/strings that sit in the same general range as the guitar. And either way, those frequencies exist and should show up if they're not being shelved. 

 

To the OP. Try pulling that reverb off and see if it changes. I wouldn't think that cut would change anything other than the signal going through the reverb and not the dry audio passing through. Also try flipping the phase at the split before the cab IRs in case something is goofy there.

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So I tried recording with a new patch. To make things simple, I only put on an amp+cab block. I turned the high cut to about 14k and again, the global eq was off. No other effects or blocks were on (no input pad, no input gate). Below are some screenshots of the EQ analyzer and where the edge of the frequencies was. With a Q set that was adding 10+ db I barely got anything out of the 7k range. Idk if the amp i picked matters, but I chose the Uberschall (probably not spelled correctly) and Engl models for this test. Both are high gain so I thought it would help the cause. I also forgot to mention, I run through a pedalboard prior to the LT, but for this test all my pedals were off. 

 

Like I said before, this happened when I had an HX stomp too, so I don't think this is due to the unit i'm using. 

 

For any follow up questions about my gear, here is my complete rig: 

 

Ibanez rgr652ahb with dimarzio fusion edge pickups

Ernie ball 52-10 cobalt strings (I'm in standard tuning)

Ernie ball prodigy picks

Ernie ball 10 ft cable to the pedalboard

Dunlop kirk hammett wah (modded for true bypass and LED)

EHX mel 9

Digitech drop

Digitech whammy (5th gen)

Ibanez TS9

MXR EVH phase 90

TC electronic Sentry noise gate

MXR carbon copy

Hosa 5 ft cable to LT

USB cable from LT to mac (i'm using the LT as my interface)

Logic Pro X 10.4

 

 

I'm using Three Monkeys Solderless cables to connect all my pedals. My pedals are all powered with a Voodoo Lab Pedal Power 2 Plus. I know I mentioned the wah pedal was modded; however, this issue happened with the HX Stomp too before I modded the wah. 

I doubt it's a power issue, I use a Livewire surge protector in a building with acceptable power. 

When this happened with the Stomp, I was living back at home (great power) plugged into a Samson power conditioner. 

 

That's everything that goes into the equation here, so I'm really not sure where the problem is. 

 

Also, as far as plugins are concerned, for this test I used only an EQ on the guitar channel to demonstrate the highest I could reach in the frequency spectrum. There weren't any plugins on my master bus, guitar bus, or anywhere else linked. 

 

 

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I doubt that there is anything wrong. I might have missed it, but which speaker / microphone combination are you using?

 

In the real world, depending on the amp, speaker type, the microphone used and the mic placement you will not find any content above 7k either. I would say the Helix correctly models the realy world behaviour of guitar speakers.

 

Starting with the speaker: Take a look at the frequency response of a guitar speaker like the Vintage 30:

graph.gif

you can see that the speaker itself does not produce much content above 4k and does attenuate higher frequencies drastically. Many modern amps also attenuate high frequencies to get rid of fizz and achieve their smooth, "buttery" distortion. Not sure about the Engl Amps, I'd be pretty sure the Überschall falls into that category. A dimed Plexi does not have any high frequency attenuation to speak of and gives much more high frequency sizzle.

 

The chosen mic type and its position also plays into that. A Royer or similar mic placed at the cone edge produces hardly any high frequency content, a 414 placed at the cap will fry your ears.

 

Long story short, I'd say what you see is perfectly normal. If you still suspect your Helix is faulty, take an empty patch, feed something like a white noise signal into it and compare input and output.

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That analyzer seems pretty shallow in terms of dynamic range so I would not call that a hard low pass problem. As previously stated, the dropoff on a typical guitar cab will be around 5K...Keep in mind that a guitar speaker (or IR) is basically a fancy low pass filter. I would suggest using something like Voxengo Span VST on the track to check it. It will give you full dynamic and bandwidth range based on your bit depth sample rate. I have been using it for years and think it is a decent analyzer.

 

https://www.voxengo.com/product/span/

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I think the analyzer in that EQ is just shallow (as @spaceatl mentioned) since your lows are tapering off heavy well above 100hz, too. What happens when you run the amp model with no cab after it into the analyzer? 

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Run some white/pink noise through the Helix (Logic has a test tone generator). Simply use one of its outs to feed the input. Use exactly no blocks. Monitor that signal on USB 1/2. Find out whether the noise is still the same or whether it's altered significantly compared to the noise as long as it stays inside Logic. This test is set up in a matter of 30 seconds and will instantly end all speculative suspections.

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