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molul

Is polyphonic tuning or pitch shifting technically possible on the Helix?

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I'm not in a hurry for this, and I searched in the forums before opening this topic but only found a post saying that someone from Line 6 "hinted that it's possible", but I didn't find this anywhere.

 

I just wonder if this would be possible on current hardware :)

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Polyphonic pitch detection doesn't require any different hardware to monophonic pitch detection. However, the algorithm is more demanding and would require more DSP. I suspect the Helix has enough power to do it but it will probably end up being an expensive block to use.

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Yes, sorry. I meant in terms of DSP. I do think the Helix's DSP must be superior to EHX's Pitch Fork, but I don't really know. 

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I expect you’re right that there is more available DSP in Helix than the PitchFork. However Helix has to do a lot more than support a single purpose with its total DSP. I’m sure Helix could do a tremendous job at polyphonic pitch shifting if it didn’t also have to support an amp/cab or two along with multiple other FX in a preset. Not sure how Helix users would respond to a single FX block requiring up to 50% of the overall DSP. 
 

I’m not suggesting it would require that much of the overall DSP, nor that Line 6 won’t implement this someday. Just saying that a straight-up DSP capacity comparison between these two devices is not the way to look at this.

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Polyphonic tuning is one of them 'here today gone tomorrow' gimmicks.

It's just as slow/fast as string-by-string tuning with a tuner.

The best way to quickly tune your guitar is to train your ear for relative pitch of EADGBE,, some people strum the guitar once and tune all strings in seconds, amazing spectacle.

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It is not the DSP. It is the programming. Line 6 has to come up with a way to perform polyphonic pitch shifting that has not been done before.  Other effect makers (Digitech, Eventide, TC Electronic, etc) have their own proprietary algorithms. About a year ago, Frank R did say they had hired some people that had knowledge of polyphonic algorithms and had worked for another such company.  He said they were working on it, but that it would take time.  My guess is that it will not be in 2.9 but is possible in 3.0.  I have no insider knowledge.  They may be much farther away than that.

 

I did see an interview with Paul Reed Smith where he said he learned a technique from his father on how to recognize frequencies. His father was in WWII and was a radar or radio operator of some king. The trick is recognizing the pitch fast.  Think about a frequency being a wave.  From what I understand, most algorithms can only detect the frequency after a full wave but he had a technique on how to do it with a smaller part of the wave. I searched and could not find that particular video but it was very interesting. It's not even about poly pitch, just the fact that recognizing a single pitch can be so complicated.

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There should be some polyphonic stuff coming in 3.0. I don't know that they're looking to use it for the tuner, though.

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1 hour ago, Ilya-V said:

Polyphonic tuning is one of them 'here today gone tomorrow' gimmicks.

It's just as slow/fast as string-by-string tuning with a tuner.

The best way to quickly tune your guitar is to train your ear for relative pitch of EADGBE,, some people strum the guitar once and tune all strings in seconds, amazing spectacle.

I gotta disagree. I tune significantly faster with my polytune since my guitar usually stays in tune and only 2-3 strings need to be slightly adjusted most times. Being able to see, in a single strum, which strings are to be tuned, save me time from checking all strings all times.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, phil_m said:

There should be some polyphonic stuff coming in 3.0. I don't know that they're looking to use it for the tuner, though.

While I don't really know, I'd say the time they find a way to detect all strings frequencies, they can do either polyphonic shifting or tuning. It should be a matter of treating the info, either generating shifted notes or displaying the tune in the screen.

 

Again, just guessing.

 

Glad to know they said they have people working on it :)

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On 3/19/2020 at 10:59 AM, Ilya-V said:

Polyphonic tuning is one of them 'here today gone tomorrow' gimmicks.

It's just as slow/fast as string-by-string tuning with a tuner.

The best way to quickly tune your guitar is to train your ear for relative pitch of EADGBE,, some people strum the guitar once and tune all strings in seconds, amazing spectacle.

 

It's not just about polyphonic tuning. Polyphonic processing can deliver synth, drop-tuning, and other effects that allow for multiple strings to be processed differently and accurate tracking of synthesized or drop-tuned chords. The ability to essentially mimic what a hex pickup is capable of doing although usually not with quite the same level of nuance or accuracy although the algorithms are getting better with time.

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The pitch shifter is polyphonic. It's just not convincing enough to be used as a capo pedal. I've tried a bunch of those pedals, though (EHX, Digitech) and none of them are good enough to be used as capos, in my opinion.

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18 minutes ago, ribribeiro said:

The pitch shifter is polyphonic. It's just not convincing enough to be used as a capo pedal. I've tried a bunch of those pedals, though (EHX, Digitech) and none of them are good enough to be used as capos, in my opinion.

 

As far as I know there are currently no polyphonic effects on the Helix. 

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4 hours ago, ribribeiro said:

The pitch shifter is polyphonic. It's just not convincing enough to be used as a capo pedal. I've tried a bunch of those pedals, though (EHX, Digitech) and none of them are good enough to be used as capos, in my opinion.

I don't think it's polyphonic at all. A polyphonic shifter doesn't produce artifacts.

 

The EHX Pitch fork is pretty good. Not 100% like a capo (will that ever be possible?), but as good as it can be right now. Definitely much better than any monophonic shifter. I can use it to add an octave up or down and sound convincing, as long a it's not louder than the main guitar volume.

 

The Whammy V also sounds good but I sold it to get a Pitch fork because the latter has a mix knob. 

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On 3/19/2020 at 5:37 AM, molul said:

I'm not in a hurry for this, and I searched in the forums before opening this topic but only found a post saying that someone from Line 6 "hinted that it's possible", but I didn't find this anywhere.

 

I just wonder if this would be possible on current hardware :)

 

Searching the forums should have revealed this thread from Valentines Day, way back in 2018:

Yup, see the image attached to my post in the thread where Eric mentions hiring a team of experts in polyphonic pitch shifting.

 

And, I note that since then, "phil_m" appears to have had a change of mind and now says "There should be some polyphonic stuff coming in 3.0". He is a man who would know these things.

 

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I'm pretty confident in saying that there will be some polyphonic stuff coming in 3.0 just because that's what several Line 6 guys have been saying publicly for awhile now (notably, Igor Stolarsky, who's does a lot of the coding for the Helix). So, yeah, the pitch shifting stuff should be coming.

 

As far as polyphonic tuning, I've never quite understood the appeal. Yeah, I get that it tells you which strings are out of tune, but you can still only tune one at a time. And a lot of time if I'm tuning a few strings, I'll just check them all quickly anyways. Does having a polyphonic tuner actually save time?

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25 minutes ago, datacommando said:

 

Searching the forums should have revealed this thread from Valentines Day, way back in 2018:

Yup, see the image attached to my post in the thread where Eric mentions hiring a team of experts in polyphonic pitch shifting.

 

And, I note that since then, "phil_m" appears to have had a change of mind and now says "There should be some polyphonic stuff coming in 3.0". He is a man who would know these things.

 

It certainly didn't appear on the first dozens of pages when I searched. Thanks! Two years since that, though ^_^U

 

 

 

 

20 minutes ago, phil_m said:

I'm pretty confident in saying that there will be some polyphonic stuff coming in 3.0 just because that's what several Line 6 guys have been saying publicly for awhile now (notably, Igor Stolarsky, who's does a lot of the coding for the Helix). So, yeah, the pitch shifting stuff should be coming.

 

As far as polyphonic tuning, I've never quite understood the appeal. Yeah, I get that it tells you which strings are out of tune, but you can still only tune one at a time. And a lot of time if I'm tuning a few strings, I'll just check them all quickly anyways. Does having a polyphonic tuner actually save time?

 

 

As I said a few posts ago, it does. I'm my case, normally only 2 or 3 strings are out of tune everytime I start rehearsing. Being able to see which, saves you from checking all strings. Also, if all strings were in tune, you'd only need to strum the guitar once, instead of six.

 

You don't save years, of course, but it's better than string by string for sure. I guess it's more noticeable when you have a polyphonic tuner than imagining it. I got my first polytune ten years ago and I will never go back xD

 

The polytune 3 mini is probably the best choice. Despite its size, you can clearly see all strings as in the normal size versions, but it takes much less space. It also comes with buffer, and can detect drop D tuning.

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