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Lone_Poor_Boy

READ THE MANUAL

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I watched a Ben Vesco video on setting up 2 amps across both DSP chips and he wrote "read the manual" in reply to someones comment on YouTube.

 

I just went through the manual a bit and I see what he meant.  The two main things he demos are right there, early, in fairly short paragraphs. 

 

That said, there is a huge leap from reading something 'on paper' and actually being able to implement it in this big black box with many buttons.  But what I just read gave me clarity I did not have, in a lot of areas around operation of the Helix.

 

I am once again reminded to go against my instincts, and read the damn manual!!  LOL!

 

 

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I still think the manual leaves a lot to be desired.

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Am I the only one that didn't think the two amps together sounded any better than just one of them? 
I had one of the first Helix Floors that shipped out of Sweetwater back in October of 2015. (now I have a Stomp instead)


And no matter what I did...I was never able to get two amps together to ever sound as good as just one amp dialed in correctly. And I don't hear it sounding any better in that guys video either.

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On 3/29/2020 at 2:02 AM, robbieb61 said:

Am I the only one that didn't think the two amps together sounded any better than just one of them? 
I had one of the first Helix Floors that shipped out of Sweetwater back in October of 2015. (now I have a Stomp instead)


And no matter what I did...I was never able to get two amps together to ever sound as good as just one amp dialed in correctly. And I don't hear it sounding any better in that guys video either.

 

I also never seem to get one with dual amps - never a massive 'improved' sound to justify doing it

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The only time I use dual amp setups is when I use them in snapshots to make dramatic changes in tone and dynamics within a song but that's just switching between two amps.  I don't see any value at all using dual amps simultaneously.

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The trick (well, for me anyway) with dual amps is using one that is much darker and one that is much brighter. By blending the two together with one mostly panned left and one mostly right, and careful use of a slapback delay or reverb, you end up with a really nice stereo image, and a full sound with tight bass and great treble articulation. You can also vary the amount of distortion on one amp vs. the other to tighten up certain frequencies change the breakup characteristics.

That said, doing it this way is really only useful for recording or playing in small spaces with stereo monitors. If you had this setup live, in stereo, most of the audience would be hearing more of one vs. the other and it'd sound pretty craptastic. Also, I only really do this with crunchy, low-ish gain tones. I'm not sure if it translates very well to high-gain stuff.

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That probably explains why I've never heard any benefit in dual amps. I'm always playing live and in mono. So instead of setting up one dark and one bright...I set up a "goldilocks" sound (Just Right).  :)

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It will only ever be worthwhile if you have two separate poweramp/speaker systems - stereo, wet/dry, clean/dirty - whatever.  Just having two amps in Helix and mixing them together into one mono sound output will never really achieve anything.

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An interesting way to get benefit from dual amps in a mono signal: put one of the amp paths behind a really short delay, with one repeat and at 100% mix, so none of the unaffected signal gets through. It helps separate the two paths in a way that comes naturally with stereo output.

 

Good luck!

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RTFM is a way of life. If it's not in the manual the correct order for solving a problem is Google->Experiment->THEN ASK THE FORUM.

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13 minutes ago, gunpointmetal said:

RTFM is a way of life. If it's not in the manual the correct order for solving a problem is Google->Experiment->THEN ASK THE FORUM.

 

And if not, you can always find the answer on TGP...   ; )

 

 

lol

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On 3/28/2020 at 11:02 PM, robbieb61 said:

Am I the only one that didn't think the two amps together sounded any better than just one of them? 
I had one of the first Helix Floors that shipped out of Sweetwater back in October of 2015. (now I have a Stomp instead)


And no matter what I did...I was never able to get two amps together to ever sound as good as just one amp dialed in correctly. And I don't hear it sounding any better in that guys video either.

Nope.  Even when you run it in stereo, you're not getting the full effect of two real amps together in a room. The psycho-acoustic effects are very complex. Likely too complex for modelers.

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17 hours ago, hideout said:

Nope.  Even when you run it in stereo, you're not getting the full effect of two real amps together in a room. The psycho-acoustic effects are very complex. Likely too complex for modelers.

Where's @Digital_Igloo when we need to do a shot for someone conflating playback source for modeling? The only way to achieve the "psycho-acoustic" of two cabs at volume in a room is two cabs...at volume...in a room. Now, if you want to get the mic'd studio sound of two amps and two cabs in a room and play it back in high fidelity through a stereo PA system, its definitely NOT too complex for modeling.  

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10 hours ago, gunpointmetal said:

Where's @Digital_Igloo when we need to do a shot for someone conflating playback source for modeling? The only way to achieve the "psycho-acoustic" of two cabs at volume in a room is two cabs...at volume...in a room. Now, if you want to get the mic'd studio sound of two amps and two cabs in a room and play it back in high fidelity through a stereo PA system, its definitely NOT too complex for modeling.  

The mic'd studio sound of two amps and two cabs in a room is nowhere near as dramatic as the sound of being in the room with those two amps is my point.

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9 hours ago, hideout said:

The mic'd studio sound of two amps and two cabs in a room is nowhere near as dramatic as the sound of being in the room with those two amps is my point.

Ok, but that has nothing to with the "complexity" of the signal, and everything to do with the amplification method and sound pressure levels is my point. Even if you could recreate the exact spatial sound of two cabs in a room, which one probably could by shooting their own "head placement" IRs with neutral mics, its not going to be the same without all the air moving. The sound of two amps moving air in a room is different in every room, because the sound depends on the source (guitar cab) interacting with the room. The sound of two cabs in a room in a 15x15 rehearsal space is going to be dramatically different than those two cabs interacting with the room in a full 300 person venue.

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1 hour ago, gunpointmetal said:

Ok, but that has nothing to with the "complexity" of the signal, and everything to do with the amplification method and sound pressure levels is my point. Even if you could recreate the exact spatial sound of two cabs in a room, which one probably could by shooting their own "head placement" IRs with neutral mics, its not going to be the same without all the air moving. The sound of two amps moving air in a room is different in every room, because the sound depends on the source (guitar cab) interacting with the room. The sound of two cabs in a room in a 15x15 rehearsal space is going to be dramatically different than those two cabs interacting with the room in a full 300 person venue.

I mentioned absolutely nothing about the complexity of the “signal”. Read my post again.  
 

The signal is dead simple. The psychoacoustic effects are not. 

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9 minutes ago, hideout said:

I mentioned absolutely nothing about the complexity of the “signal”. Read my post again.  
 

The signal is dead simple. The psychoacoustic effects are not. 

And I'm saying you can't recreate sound pressure levels without sound pressure levels. Which is independent of the modeling. You're saying modeling can't recreate the "psychoacoustics" (not sure that term even applies to this), which has nothing to with modeling. 

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27 minutes ago, gunpointmetal said:

And I'm saying you can't recreate sound pressure levels without sound pressure levels. Which is independent of the modeling. You're saying modeling can't recreate the "psychoacoustics" (not sure that term even applies to this), which has nothing to with modeling. 

OMG... ok... lol  I'm done with this. Still laughing though.

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On 4/7/2020 at 3:32 PM, hideout said:

Nope.  Even when you run it in stereo, you're not getting the full effect of two real amps together in a room. The psycho-acoustic effects are very complex. Likely too complex for modelers.

I’m gonna have to agree with @gunpointmetal here... after reading all your replies, I don’t really see what your point is. If you want to have those ‘pyscho-acoustic’ effects, then run a stereo dual-amp patch through stereo cabs in a room. How is that any different from using two amps and two cabs in the same room? If your point is that a modeler can’t mimic that effect through headphones, well yeah — neither can two real mic’d cabs through headphones. So, like gunpointmetal, I don’t see what your larger point is.

Also, FWIW, there are LOTS of recorded albums that have two different amps mic’d and mixed in stereo. If you’re recording, it makes tons of sense to do this in a single patch, like I mentioned above. My best Helix patches for recording and listening in a small room are mostly stereo amps + cabs.

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On 3/28/2020 at 8:58 PM, hideout said:

I still think the manual leaves a lot to be desired.

 

Since the manual is a .pdf I put sticky note comments to supplement it in appropriate places.

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On 4/7/2020 at 12:56 AM, qwerty42 said:

The trick (well, for me anyway) with dual amps is using one that is much darker and one that is much brighter. By blending the two together with one mostly panned left and one mostly right, and careful use of a slapback delay or reverb, you end up with a really nice stereo image, and a full sound with tight bass and great treble articulation. You can also vary thamount of distortion on one amp vs. the other to tighten up certain frequencies change th

 

e breakup characteristics.

That said, doing it this way is really only useful for recording or playing in small spaces with stereo monitors. If you had this setup live, in stereo, most of the audience would be hearing more of one vs. the other and it'd sound pretty craptastic. Also, I only really do this with crunchy, low-ish gain tones. I'm not sure if it translates very well to high-gain stuff.

 

 

for high gain, I like the ANGL Meteor panned hard right, and mix it with most any other high gain amp panned hard left.  Then I use an Ownhammer orange 4x12 and a 2x12 IR on either amp. (I stick to orange, because my real cab is an orange 2x12)...  It sounds massive.  The ANGL is just naturally darker than pretty much all the other high gain amps so it just sits in really well with just the defaults.  Maybe some minor tweaks to suit ones taste.  Boom!  monstrous sound in like 5 minutes.  (i do use a tube screamer and kinky boost in front for extra tightness as well)   ..reverbs vary.

 

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