Question : preamp / amp / cab modeling and tube amp

[JogNeuch]

Hello everyone,

I am quite new in the field of multieffects and amp modelling.

I would like to buy a modeler (line 6 probably) and I have a question about the product line.

Here is my setup : Epiphone Standard pro, Blackstar HT-5Rmkii (tube+effect loop)

So my question : if i understand well, it is possible to use the pre-amp or amp modeling with a tube amp by going directly to the return of the tube-amp. With a 4CM method, it is possible to choose either the Blackstar tube first stage or the simulated amp/preamp. Is that right?

But for the cabinets : is it possible to specify the cabinet I am using and simulate another one ? Is that a non-sense? I have read that some people have had problems by using amp/cab modeling with a real tube amplifier and I do not understand why. Do you have videos I can watch to understand? If there is an aux entry on the cab, is it perhaps possible to use this entry instead of a FRFR speaker ? (see pictures hereafter) I have no knowledge on impedance and so on...

Next question, it is written in the manual that it is possible to use usb_in_1and2 to jam music from a computer. What if the main output of the pod go is connected to the second stage of the amplifier ? Does it affect the sound of the jammed music ? Will you propose to use the aux entry of the amp for jamming from the PC ? Are those usb_in_1,2 send back to ubs_out_1,2 ?

I would like to buy this modeler soon and I hesitate between HX effects and Pod Go (when available here...). The big big difference to me is the pre-amp and cab functionality of the pod go. Do you think it could be useful in my case ?

 

Thanks a lot for your help (sorry for the quantities of questions...)

 

 

 

 

[spaceatl]

I think you should probably be looking at the Helix LT if 4CM is your top priority. You will not be able to switch channels from the PodGo. I am have been using modelers with amps for a very long time. IMO 4CM is a lot of trouble for very little added functionality. The patching is complex and the tweaking takes 10x longer. Again, if that is your top priority, I think the PodGo is the wrong box...I would go with a Helix or Helix LT...Or even HX FX if the amp models are less importance. just my opinion.

 

 For me, I run power amp in on any amp I am using. PodGo is actually quite good at this. The AMP out works well with the amps I have tried it with. I have done this for guitar and bass...I dial it on on FRFR...most often I use FRFR monitors...I have made the jump from using conventional amps...The only time I will use one if if backline is provided and logistics are just easier...power amp in...done...

[JogNeuch]

1 hour ago, spaceatl said:

I think you should probably be looking at the Helix LT if 4CM is your top priority. You will not be able to switch channels from the PodGo. I am have been using modelers with amps for a very long time. IMO 4CM is a lot of trouble for very little added functionality. The patching is complex and the tweaking takes 10x longer. Again, if that is your top priority, I think the PodGo is the wrong box...I would go with a Helix or Helix LT...Or even HX FX if the amp models are less importance. just my opinion.

 

 For me, I run power amp in on any amp I am using. PodGo is actually quite good at this. The AMP out works well with the amps I have tried it with. I have done this for guitar and bass...I dial it on on FRFR...most often I use FRFR monitors...I have made the jump from using conventional amps...The only time I will use one if if backline is provided and logistics are just easier...power amp in...done...

Hi Spaceatl,

Thank you very much for your answer,

I am not sure that it is not possible to switch channels from the pod Go. Theoriticaly you are right but as there are only 2 channels in the Blackstar HT-5Rmkii and no switch for thereverb, I thing the result would be the same as doing the trick described in the documentation :

Am I wrong ?

Now concerning the patching, I have the feeling with the videos that I found that it is not very difficult to add an effect loop and configure the footswitch with the Pod Go.. For sure it will probably take more time with an Helix Floor, LT or HX effects !!! Concerning the tweaking, I have no Idea if it takes more time ? Why is it longer to tweak real amp instead of modeled one ?

I know that Helix and Helix LT are more powerfull in terms of functionnality but they are also too big for me. The question is now Pod Go or HX effects.

I have the feeling that the Pod Go is the perfect compromise between all the modelers type : small enough to be carried, powerfull enough, expression Pedal included, possiblities to do re-amping, afforderable price.

HX effects lakes re-amping, expression pedal, cabinet simulation but is on the market now and a bit more powerfull. It has the possibility to control the amp (needed or not ?)

[spaceatl]

No you are not wrong at all. It depends on what is important to you. I was just giving you my opinion. I have done 4CM...Longer means tweaking time of the patches and the amp. Most of the time it's leveling things out...getting amp set where you want it, getting the patch leveled out so the FX Loop toggle is balanced properly...you move the amp and bump the knobs you gotta put it back...Then you might find that in one situation, the volume level of your amp needs to be a little different and it just doesn't seem leveled out anymore...Granted it is easy to adjust when you are under the POD, but it got annoying to me. Going across patches and making sure relative volume is good. It's just tweaky and twice as many cables....For me, tweaking a POD alone is a breeze and there is no loss of flexibility that 4CM offers IMO...

 

If you haven't done 4CM and built 16 banks of patches for 4CM leveled out for performance then you should do it if you that is what you want...Not trying to discourage you at all. That is a nice amp and I think it would do 4CM quite nice and Line 6 has made much easier in the PodGo than it used to be in the earlier PODs.

 

All I am telling you is that I have done it and the benefits of have 1-4 real preamp tones that are in the amp are not worth it to me because I can get them close enough any POD. I just did not use them enough to justify all the tweaking time and extra cables. I moved to an FRFR wedge and basically I hardly ever use backline anymore. And I used amps for a long time...The modelers were not good enough on their own for me until HD came out. PodGo is very nice improvement tone wise...Not quite as flexible, but it works for what I need.

 

Now, I use the PODGo for the studio too...It's faster to dial it up by itself than a 4CM setup and I get the music done...I can take a dry off the PodGo at the same time and use Helix Native to really get patches going the PodGo can't do...Mostly multi-path stuff...I just don't need that sort of complexity live...I just need a POD, guitar and an FRFR monitor or cans...The KISS principle is how I roll.

[JogNeuch]

2 hours ago, spaceatl said:

No you are not wrong at all. It depends on what is important to you. I was just giving you my opinion. I have done 4CM...Longer means tweaking time of the patches and the amp. Most of the time it's leveling things out...getting amp set where you want it, getting the patch leveled out so the FX Loop toggle is balanced properly...you move the amp and bump the knobs you gotta put it back...Then you might find that in one situation, the volume level of your amp needs to be a little different and it just doesn't seem leveled out anymore...Granted it is easy to adjust when you are under the POD, but it got annoying to me. Going across patches and making sure relative volume is good. It's just tweaky and twice as many cables....For me, tweaking a POD alone is a breeze and there is no loss of flexibility that 4CM offers IMO...

 

If you haven't done 4CM and built 16 banks of patches for 4CM leveled out for performance then you should do it if you that is what you want...Not trying to discourage you at all. That is a nice amp and I think it would do 4CM quite nice and Line 6 has made much easier in the PodGo than it used to be in the earlier PODs.

 

All I am telling you is that I have done it and the benefits of have 1-4 real preamp tones that are in the amp are not worth it to me because I can get them close enough any POD. I just did not use them enough to justify all the tweaking time and extra cables. I moved to an FRFR wedge and basically I hardly ever use backline anymore. And I used amps for a long time...The modelers were not good enough on their own for me until HD came out. PodGo is very nice improvement tone wise...Not quite as flexible, but it works for what I need.

 

Now, I use the PODGo for the studio too...It's faster to dial it up by itself than a 4CM setup and I get the music done...I can take a dry off the PodGo at the same time and use Helix Native to really get patches going the PodGo can't do...Mostly multi-path stuff...I just don't need that sort of complexity live...I just need a POD, guitar and an FRFR monitor or cans...The KISS principle is how I roll.

Thanks for the answer.

 

You have lots of experience and you must be right.

I bought the amplifier one mounth ago and I love the sound. That is psychological but I do not want to sell him now for a FRFR speaker. It is important to me to have the modeling effects after the amplifier stage. That is the reason why 4CM method is important to me today. I will probably change in the futur for a FRFR speaker (or 2CM method with clean amp setting) but it is too soon now.

Given that, what kind of wirering method would you use (see my first post) ?

 

Thanks a lot for your replies, it really helps me. I am those kind of person who want to know deaply a product before buying...

[spaceatl]

I understand. Blackstars are great amps. They sound awesome. Looks to me like you have done your homework. I need to get some time with the PodGo...I have 2 banks of patches and they are for guitar and bass and only for FRFR use....I have not had time since the pandemic came on to do any 4CM experiments....However, what I would try first that differs from the manual slightly is using the AMP out for the power amp in instead of the main out....That way I could keep the IR cab for the main outs nd run direct at the same time as feeding the amp. The only trick there is to disable the amp model only....leave the IR enable and change the AMP OUT option to tap before the cab instead of the mirroring the main out....good luck sir!

[Digital_Igloo]

If anything, 4CM is probably easier to set up in POD Go than other boxes because every preset has a dedicated FX Loop block. Typically, you only need to switch the FX Loop to mono (if it's not mono already). If you want to swap your real amp's preamp with one from POD Go:

1. Select the Amp block, press the Lower Knob to open the model list, and select your favorite preamp.
2. From Stomp footswitch mode, press and hold the FX Loop block switch. Make sure either the preamp block OR the FX Loop block is bypassed by selecting one and pressing the Upper Knob.

In 4CM, pressing that switch will seamless swap out your real amp's preamp with one of POD Go's preamp models. It's loads of fun, especially when you're just starting out, trying to figure out which amps you like.

[JogNeuch]

Thanks a lot,

It is more clearer for me now !

I question I still have : are the usb_in_1,2 sent back to ubs_out_1,2 or only to main out ?

Same question for amp out ? Are usb_in1,2 rooted to amp out ?

[Red_Strat1]

Howdy. 
(I sort of still say this in Aussie sometimes - showing my age?). (;-)

 

I’m thinking of updating my old but still quite serviceable Pod HD Desktop with a Pod Go, for a purely home-based guitarist it seems to offer most things I need - especially with an effects loop - at a price that even here (~US$650) is ‘reasonable’.

 

I would like to use the  4CM method  with (say Pod Go) into my tube amp similar to the way JogNeuch  described. (On occasions).

I can also see a use for just running into the amp loop for the power section, bypassing the pre-amp and using the variety of PG amp models. 
 

Now the issue is that I have an Ibanez TSA30 (Tubescreamer) amp with a weird Fx loop. When used the fix loop only bypasses the TS circuit at the very front of amp - not the pre-amp like ‘normal’  loops.

 

The TSA30 has some very nice tones, quiet when not playing, flexible, good cleans, and get some nice crunchy tones at bedroom volume levels so I want to keep it and not rush out and spend ~ $US600  / $AU1,000 on a Blues Jnr or Bassbreaker with a real loop? Or a Blackstar HTR5 which looks great too? 
 

But I need to mod it locally - preferably with a professional amp maker who’s done this sort of thing (adding loops) before. Estimated cost might be ~ $AU250 / $US150 or so. 

So my question(s) are:

will the investment be worth it - ie. sound noticeably better than sending all The signal from the PG to the front of amp?  (Bearing in mind I cannot currently bypass the pre-amp, so to use any PG amp modelling, I’m effectively running two pre-amps in series. (Yes  as per the HD desktop I’d like to explore the PG models - I don’t have powered speakers - yet! - one day!)  
 

Is it only on the more distorted (& cranked?) amp models (used with time-based effects), that I’ll really appreciate fitting and using an FX loop for the 4CM?  Or is the sound quality difference obvious? 

 

My gut feel reading lots of threads around various forums (fora?) is that a proper loop will make a difference for sound and open up a greater range of PG tones. But I’d greatly appreciate any views here before outplaying cash (Soon) on either the FX loop mod or the Pod Go - which I’d like to get before Christmas ideally and relieve The Pando boredom of Melbourne in a hard lockdown - and no gigs allowed anywhere! 
 

Thanks in advance. 

 

PS; a couple of addenda:  

the Boss GT100 v2 is ‘sort of’ on the list - looks good, good fx but modelling behind the PG? Quite a bit bigger too for a compact room? 
 

Any thoughts on the type, brand (or wattage) of powered speaker required to best use the tonal qualities of the Pod? 

cheers. (Trying to keep to a budget (hobby) here).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ts020572]

Okay, it was a few years ago when I had a Blackstar HT5 MK1, but if the MK2 does sound the same I wouldn't waste any time with 4cm. Just go into FX Return and play that Pod GO, my opinion...

Okay, and that really doesn't answer your question about that TSA30 at all, sorry :-)

[Red_Strat1]

Thanks mate, sorry about the delay replying. It's a fair enough answer.  

 

The TSA30 is unorthodox with the FX loop is behind the TS circuit but in front of the pre-amp.  It's a fairly clean amp sans TS circuit, esp. on low gain settings.  

 

Since posting my question a couple of local amp techs (they make quality valve amps) have stated that it may be possible to modify the amp FX loop but it may cost 1/3 to 1/2 amp new price.  The last chap said to get the Effect unit and try all the alternate ways (front /FX send/ powered spk) of amplification before taking the FX-mod route. Seems sensible and may save some money for a decent powered speaker in the near future?

 

So as per your comments, I might do just that  (FX Ret) and A/B sound with the FoA.

 

I'm close to buying - I've tested the PG twice and sales have demo'd  & it looks / sounds great - better than the Pod HD!   

 

To me it's always good to see/hear first than just buy on line based on videos, forums and written reviews? 

 

It's going to be a bit of a learning curve c/w the old HD unit but a fun ride no doubt!

 

Cheers.

 

 

[rwinking]

4CM rules with the Pod Go. I don't have any pronlem leveling or tweaking. Maybe I am used to it. I have it set up as an FX unit but at a moments notice, I can flip to using it for the amp models. It is really pretty simple and as someone said, with the FX loop it goes back and forth with ease.