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Since Line6 has gone completely incommunicado and support is reduced to nil as evidenced by the fact they won't even fix the CustomTone site they themselves broke (in order to funnel more eyes to the AmpliFi product methinks?) -- Satan himself will have icicles in his beard before I ever purchase another Line6 product again. Done with digital unless something changes very fast.  

Ironically, the problem isn't the tone, unless the corporate tone set by Line6 since this buyout counts.  That tone clearly sucks. :angry:
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I've been were you are, so I understand the feeling.   Pod XT bean (when it was just released) was my first device that I started using when deciding to learning guitar at the advanced age of 30.  I later bought a duoverb, and a vetta.  At the time, it felt like Line 6 was attempting to have offerings for a pro-sumer type player, and really trying to be in the same level as the other major amp makers.  They discontinued all the higher level stuff and started pushing the spider line of gear, and started with the Bogner tube/emulation hybrids.

 

My duoverb ended up blowing up and the vetta line was discontinued, and I got to thinking about spending those sums of money on something relies on dsp and code.  With all the great amps around since the 1960's that still function and can be repaired with readily available resistors, caps, and tubes....how will this stuff fair 40 or 50 years from now.  If I am going to spend $1000+ on something....I can get something built (in the USA no less) that can have longevity.

 

I have been following your posts on other topics....I am a former Carlisle,Pa resident (N. Bedford St) that left for Maryland about 5 years ago.  You seem to feel the same way and spoke about a Fender amp and your grand kid being able to play it many years from now.

 

I still like digital, and ended up getting a used 500HD after my old Tonelab had met with an unloading accident.   I play at a local church every Sunday, and have moved on to traditional tubes amps for my big ticket purchases, but it just isn't worth lugging around my roadster or jcm800 when only playing 3 or 4 songs.  Its easier to grab the all in one unit and let a sound guy set the levels, etc.   Its also nice when messing around with home recording to use the hd500 or eleven rack and not have to go for extreme volume or worry about mic placement.     I had to rethink and redefine what these devices bring.  I had fallen into the Line 6 fan boi trap at first, but having a more neutral feeling about the company...if I can get a used device every couple of modeling generations to play around with its fine as long as its inexpensive.   When I have the time and really want to experience joy of the interaction between amp and guitar...I go to a source of what this stuff attempts to emulate.

 

all the best,

David

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I get what you are saying, I really do.  However, I agree with David.  I have been playing for a long eff'ing time now and honestly, it has never been as easy or as overall satisfying as it is today with a JTV, HD500 and a DT25.  I have no illusions of suddenly forming a successful touring band or gigging for a living.  And even if I did, I really don't think I would want to lug all that expensive, heavy gear around.  What I have now goes anywhere with minimal troubles and sets up in a flash with consistent tone and playability every time.  And recording has never been easier, there really are no obstacles to it any more.  That is an area I can concentrate on comfortably now.

 

I understand the desire to own the real thing but for me and most people that is just not a realistic outcome.  I can't afford all the amps I wish I could play!  And realistically I would buy 4 new versions of my POD before I spent $2000 for an amp I would never take out of the house!  As far as letting my grandkids play my gear, well I haven't had much luck getting any of my kids interested in playing in the first place.  My son finally took my original Spider 210 but I don't think he has ever turned it on...  A couple of weeks with Rocksmith is about as far as he got...  I have plenty of nice things to pass on but kids generally want new stuff...  Go figure...

 

As far as company service, well, it certainly could be better but I didn't buy my gear to open a dialogue with Line 6.  They have answered every legitimate service ticket I have submitted.  I probably won't base any future purchasing decisions on the company's web site, forums, or potential, possible, future maybe upgrades.  That has all been bonus to me and much appreciated.  I believe the Yamaha buyout will mean a big improvement in the customer support are going forward and imagine there are still big things in store for us.  Yamaha obviously saw something worth buying and corporate does not buy past performance, they buy future opportunity.  If they release something better than what I have now I will be a discerning customer.

 

I am not debating anyone's decision, just giving my opinion.  In the end you just have to do what makes you happy and if that is other gear,do it!

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I still like digital, and ended up getting a used 500HD after my old Tonelab had met with an unloading accident.   I play at a local church every Sunday, and have moved on to traditional tubes amps for my big ticket purchases, but it just isn't worth lugging around my roadster or jcm800 when only playing 3 or 4 songs.

 

David

Hey David. You and I have a lot in common. I LOVED my Tonelab (especially for the AC30 tones), live in Maryland and play my HD500(X) at my church. For me, the sound-nazi--er, I mean, technician--won the "no amps on stage battle" and in hindsight, thank goodness for that. No more hauling around my Mesa Boogie.

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I've been were you are, so I understand the feeling.   Pod XT bean (when it was just released) was my first device that I started using when deciding to learning guitar at the advanced age of 30.  I later bought a duoverb, and a vetta.  At the time, it felt like Line 6 was attempting to have offerings for a pro-sumer type player, and really trying to be in the same level as the other major amp makers.  They discontinued all the higher level stuff and started pushing the spider line of gear, and started with the Bogner tube/emulation hybrids.

 

My duoverb ended up blowing up and the vetta line was discontinued, and I got to thinking about spending those sums of money on something relies on dsp and code.  With all the great amps around since the 1960's that still function and can be repaired with readily available resistors, caps, and tubes....how will this stuff fair 40 or 50 years from now.  If I am going to spend $1000+ on something....I can get something built (in the USA no less) that can have longevity.

 

I have been following your posts on other topics....I am a former Carlisle,Pa resident (N. Bedford St) that left for Maryland about 5 years ago.  You seem to feel the same way and spoke about a Fender amp and your grand kid being able to play it many years from now.

 

I still like digital, and ended up getting a used 500HD after my old Tonelab had met with an unloading accident.   I play at a local church every Sunday, and have moved on to traditional tubes amps for my big ticket purchases, but it just isn't worth lugging around my roadster or jcm800 when only playing 3 or 4 songs.  Its easier to grab the all in one unit and let a sound guy set the levels, etc.   Its also nice when messing around with home recording to use the hd500 or eleven rack and not have to go for extreme volume or worry about mic placement.     I had to rethink and redefine what these devices bring.  I had fallen into the Line 6 fan boi trap at first, but having a more neutral feeling about the company...if I can get a used device every couple of modeling generations to play around with its fine as long as its inexpensive.   When I have the time and really want to experience joy of the interaction between amp and guitar...I go to a source of what this stuff attempts to emulate.

 

all the best,

David

 

I get what you are saying, I really do.  However, I agree with David.  I have been playing for a long eff'ing time now and honestly, it has never been as easy or as overall satisfying as it is today with a JTV, HD500 and a DT25.  I have no illusions of suddenly forming a successful touring band or gigging for a living.  And even if I did, I really don't think I would want to lug all that expensive, heavy gear around.  What I have now goes anywhere with minimal troubles and sets up in a flash with consistent tone and playability every time.  And recording has never been easier, there really are no obstacles to it any more.  That is an area I can concentrate on comfortably now.

 

I understand the desire to own the real thing but for me and most people that is just not a realistic outcome.  I can't afford all the amps I wish I could play!  And realistically I would buy 4 new versions of my POD before I spent $2000 for an amp I would never take out of the house!  As far as letting my grandkids play my gear, well I haven't had much luck getting any of my kids interested in playing in the first place.  My son finally took my original Spider 210 but I don't think he has ever turned it on...  A couple of weeks with Rocksmith is about as far as he got...  I have plenty of nice things to pass on but kids generally want new stuff...  Go figure...

 

As far as company service, well, it certainly could be better but I didn't buy my gear to open a dialogue with Line 6.  They have answered every legitimate service ticket I have submitted.  I probably won't base any future purchasing decisions on the company's web site, forums, or potential, possible, future maybe upgrades.  That has all been bonus to me and much appreciated.  I believe the Yamaha buyout will mean a big improvement in the customer support are going forward and imagine there are still big things in store for us.  Yamaha obviously saw something worth buying and corporate does not buy past performance, they buy future opportunity.  If they release something better than what I have now I will be a discerning customer.

 

I am not debating anyone's decision, just giving my opinion.  In the end you just have to do what makes you happy and if that is other gear,do it!

 

I do plan to keep my HD500 and my JTV59 Variax, and as long as they don't fail I see no reason not too.  I will use them for recording and if I go back to playing Worship services, they would be used there too.  I just don't see myself ever buying any more digital gear because it just doesn't have the staying power of my other gear.  I basically play 1950s, 60s and 70s classic rock and surf sounds and so my needs are met with a few great pedals and a Fender tube amp, plus a nice Strat or Tele.  The great thing about the digital gear I have is that you can experiment with other things easily and recording is great too.  I get that part just fine, and there is nothing wrong with the Line6 gear I have.

 

I have been playing a really long time too, since 1967 in fact.  Not that I am great by any stretch, but I do fine and I truly enjoy it.  But a good part of my life was spent pre-digital and although society tells us we need the latest and greatest everything, for me the simple fact is that the things I had before all of this were fine by me.  Choice is a great thing, but if you spend all of your time making choices you don't get to enjoy playing either.  I feel very comfortable straddling both sides of the analog-digital divide, and I find time for both.  But when I want to just play and hear the music, I head for the analog gear.  When I want to try something new and different, I head downstairs to my studio where digital gear rules.  I doubt I'm the only one who does this.

 

 

Hey David. You and I have a lot in common. I LOVED my Tonelab (especially for the AC30 tones), live in Maryland and play my HD500(X) at my church. For me, the sound-nazi--er, I mean, technician--won the "no amps on stage battle" and in hindsight, thank goodness for that. No more hauling around my Mesa Boogie.

 

We all have things in common.  I too have a Vox Tonelab which I think still sounds great.  In 1999 after retiring from the Air Force, I lived on Bedford Street in Carlisle while searching for a home to buy here.  I also played on a worship team at a church in Carlisle for some time and may be going back to that again soon too!  Small world man...

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 But when I want to just play and hear the music, I head for the analog gear.  When I want to try something new and different, I head downstairs to my studio where digital gear rules.  I doubt I'm the only one who does this.

I actually do the opposite thing.

When I record I use all my tube amps because they sound more natural to me and the sounds I get are bigger.

I can mic them up and get some real space around the instrument without using digital processing.

The digital stuff just sounds one dimentional to me.

I use the HD 500 & Variax for my duo when we play live -  easier and I can mix the show myself because everything is coming out of the same speaker.

The only time I ever use the Variax in the studio is for the sounds like the sitar and the odd instrument that I don't actually own.

And oh yeah I live in Maryland too... :)

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Just to be pedantic, all sound is one dimensional, it's a rise and fall in air pressure.

 

Yes in a scientific sense you may be accurate but when we talk in terms of hearing we use the term dimensional to describe space.

Forward, behind us, to the left or the right.

That space is what's missing in modeling.

They try to put it back with digital effects like reverb & multi-tap delays, and EQ to simulate the tone of different guitar cabinets but it's not the same.

A real amp in a room is just too complex of a sound to capture with modeling.

That's why some guitar players don't feel comfortable using a modeling amp.

Then there's the problem of latency which makes it feel like the guitar is not responding to your touch the same way.

It doesn't bother lots of players but the ones who are more sensitive to timing can feel it.

Even today's best recordings don't capture the whole picture of sound.

Classical musicians almost always prefer a live performance over a recorded one for that reason.

A modeling amp can work in a lot of settings because the audio clues are often masked by other sounds.

It's the same with sampled sounds on keyboards - pianos, strings, etc.

They work in the frame work of a song with other instruments.

When they are played solo is where you really start to hear the difference.

Otherwise tube amps, real guitars & acoustic pianos would have been replaced with samples and modeling by now -  after all sampling has been around for nearly 40 years.

After all this time it sounds better but not real.

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Yes in a scientific sense you may be accurate but when we talk in terms of hearing we use the term dimensional to describe space.

Forward, behind us, to the left or the right.

That space is what's missing in modeling.

They try to put it back with digital effects like reverb & multi-tap delays, and EQ to simulate the tone of different guitar cabinets but it's not the same.

A real amp in a room is just too complex of a sound to capture with modeling.

That's why some guitar players don't feel comfortable using a modeling amp.

Then there's the problem of latency which makes it feel like the guitar is not responding to your touch the same way.

It doesn't bother lots of players but the ones who are more sensitive to timing can feel it.

Even today's best recordings don't capture the whole picture of sound.

Classical musicians almost always prefer a live performance over a recorded one for that reason.

A modeling amp can work in a lot of settings because the audio clues are often masked by other sounds.

It's the same with sampled sounds on keyboards - pianos, strings, etc.

They work in the frame work of a song with other instruments.

When they are played solo is where you really start to hear the difference.

Otherwise tube amps, real guitars & acoustic pianos would have been replaced with samples and modeling by now -  after all sampling has been around for nearly 40 years.

After all this time it sounds better but not real.

That was one of the best explanations of how I see the difference between digital modelers and their analog predecessors.

 

When you really think about it, there is a reason that some amplifier and effects designs are always modeled. They sound great! Someone earlier said that they and many players could never afford the amps and effects they get for a reasonable layout of cash and therein lies Line6's avantage. I believe most people WOULD acquire all of the apps and effects they want separately IF they could afford it AND they didn't have to carry it all all to a gig. In other words, aside from price, convenience is also in Line6 favor. All of that makes a lot of folks (but not all) overlook the sonic differences. Actually, my younger brother (a child of the Glam Rock Era) really prefers the digital sound because it fits his style of play.

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A real amp in a room is just too complex of a sound to capture with modeling.

 

 

To date, perhaps...10 years ago, smartphones were a fantasy too.

 

Then there's the problem of latency which makes it feel like the guitar is not responding to your touch the same way.

 

I'm not sure the human ear can even be that discriminating. Mine certainly isn't, and I'm not sure I'd want to it be. Wouldn't want perfect pitch either...anything that's even slightly off must drive those people nuts...but I digress. I think the latency some claim to "feel" stems from the fact that intellectually, they know its there, since it can be measured with the right tools. After a while they convince themselves they hear it, top down processing...JMHO. We're talking about microseconds...less time than it takes to blink your eyes. Far less actually, and we can just barely perceive that if you pay attention to it.

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Didn't mean to be obnoxious.

 

Yes you did.

 

 Maybe your timingis not tight enough.

 

Twice.

 

Its certainly true that some players find latency tolerable.

 

Which is evidently your definition of "sloppy". And judging by the number of folks who are perfectly happy with the performance of their rigs, you just covered at least half of the people on this forum.

 

Just because you are not sensitive to it doesn't mean its not there.

 

Never said it wasn't there...quite the opposite, actually.

.

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To date, perhaps...10 years ago, smartphones were a fantasy too.

 

 

I'm not sure the human ear can even be that discriminating. Mine certainly isn't, and I'm not sure I'd want to it be. Wouldn't want perfect pitch either...anything that's even slightly off must drive those people nuts...but I digress. I think the latency some claim to "feel" stems from the fact that intellectually, they know its there, since it can be measured with the right tools. After a while they convince themselves they hear it, top down processing...JMHO. We're talking about microseconds...less time than it takes to blink your eyes. Far less actually, and we can just barely perceive that if you pay attention to it.

Smartphones are just another toy.

Funny thing is they call them phones and they're suppose to be smart but the worst thing they do is phone calls.

Wow you pay $200 or more for a phone and they drop the signal just like an old $25 phone from years past and spend half the time charging them - no thanks.

In terms of function & dependability they still can't compete with a land line phone.

 

I happen to be one of those people who is bothered by latency, bad timing and bad tuning.

When I work in the studio if I'm doing a project where the customer wants the snare drum replaced I have to do it manually because I hear flams when those drum replacement programs drop the new snare drum.

If I zoom in close I can see it too so I know I'm not just imagining it.

Digital drums affect a lot of drummers because the feel is created by a small bit of lag or jumping of the beat.

In that case even a few ms can mess up the feel of a song - sounds like a drum machine - stiff and lifeless.

Latency is real and it is a problem.

You can hear it when you walk through the TV department of Wal Mart or Best Buy.

All the TVs processing the sound with different amounts of latency.

You can't hear that?

It drives me nuts and I can't stand playing music when that's happening.

 

That said I have no problem using new technology.

I use it all the time in the studio but I use it for what it can do when the situation calls for it.

Like editing a song (much faster and easier on the computer than with a grease pencil and razor blades).

What I have a problem with is when people try to replace the tried and true old stuff.

When they try to convince people that it's just as good as the real thing.

Well that's just a sales pitch and a bunch of bull$H!t!

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Lol...

 

But seriously, it's a growing problem.

 

http://blogs.marketwatch.com/paydirt/2012/04/06/do-iphones-make-us-narcissists/

 

I hate the damn things, honestly. Lived just fine for the first 30 years of my life without one. Now, if you leave the house without it, it's almost as horrifying as if you'd forgotten your pants. No good...but oh, the revenue!

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Many may disagree with me here, but this is how I see it.  Digital guitar modellers of any variety of course offer their users an astounding and seemingly never ending array of choices to create new sounds.  That's a good thing, right?  For many it may be.  At times, it is for me as well.  But what I have noticed now 10 years into my experimentation with them is that like a smartphone, I tend to do nothing really useful because I get so easily distracted by all the choices.  My inner perfectionist kicks in and I fiddle with this or that, play a few bars to see how that works then repeat with something else.  Before I know it, two hours has gone by and whatever I came down to play has not been mastered but I have today's perfectly tweeked patch.  The point I am making is that my focus on the music and playing it properly, or just creating a new song or even a good riff often get's lost in the shuffle. 

So I would argue that a mind numbing array of choices CAN be counter productive to creativity.  I know it can be for me.  But to be fair, there are other times when I fiddle about and get a tasty new sound that sparks a thought, that leads to some chords that lead to a great riff that gets into a looper that I can stretch out and play a Mixolydian improv over for a while.

In the end, I feel that most technology is a double edged sword.

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Many may disagree with me here, but this is how I see it.  Digital guitar modellers of any variety of course offer their users an astounding and seemingly never ending array of choices to create new sounds.  That's a good thing, right?  For many it may be.  At times, it is for me as well.  But what I have noticed now 10 years into my experimentation with them is that like a smartphone, I tend to do nothing really useful because I get so easily distracted by all the choices.  My inner perfectionist kicks in and I fiddle with this or that, play a few bars to see how that works then repeat with something else.  Before I know it, two hours has gone by and whatever I came down to play has not been mastered but I have today's perfectly tweeked patch.  The point I am making is that my focus on the music and playing it properly, or just creating a new song or even a good riff often get's lost in the shuffle. 

 

So I would argue that a mind numbing array of choices CAN be counter productive to creativity.  I know it can be for me.  But to be fair, there are other times when I fiddle about and get a tasty new sound that sparks a thought, that leads to some chords that lead to a great riff that gets into a looper that I can stretch out and play a Mixolydian improv over for a while.

 

In the end, I feel that most technology is a double edged sword.

 

You're probably right...nothing's perfect. At one time or another, I've had a love/hate relationship with every piece of gear I've ever owned. Today's perfectly tweaked patch with sound awful tomorrow if you've been playing for hours and are tweeking with tired ears.  Isn't that why we're always buying new stuff? Maybe this amp/guitar/cable/case/strings/picks will be "the one". Oh well, the search goes on...

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Many may disagree with me here, but this is how I see it.  Digital guitar modellers of any variety of course offer their users an astounding and seemingly never ending array of choices to create new sounds.  That's a good thing, right?  For many it may be.  At times, it is for me as well.  But what I have noticed now 10 years into my experimentation with them is that like a smartphone, I tend to do nothing really useful because I get so easily distracted by all the choices.  My inner perfectionist kicks in and I fiddle with this or that, play a few bars to see how that works then repeat with something else.  Before I know it, two hours has gone by and whatever I came down to play has not been mastered but I have today's perfectly tweeked patch.  The point I am making is that my focus on the music and playing it properly, or just creating a new song or even a good riff often get's lost in the shuffle. 

 

So I would argue that a mind numbing array of choices CAN be counter productive to creativity.  I know it can be for me.  But to be fair, there are other times when I fiddle about and get a tasty new sound that sparks a thought, that leads to some chords that lead to a great riff that gets into a looper that I can stretch out and play a Mixolydian improv over for a while.

 

In the end, I feel that most technology is a double edged sword.

You are absolutely correct.

You wouldn't believe how much time is wasted these days in the studio trying to select between different patches on keyboards, on drum modules and now on modeling amps.

It's a big waste of time and I long for the days when a good group of musicians would come in, set up their drums & guitar rigs and just freakin' play!

It's not rocket science but some musicians these days are acting like it is.

My advice to them - pay less attention to all the toys and spent more time on your song writing and playing skills.

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You can hear it when you walk through the TV department of Wal Mart or Best Buy.

All the TVs processing the sound with different amounts of latency.

You can't hear that?

It drives me nuts and I can't stand playing music when that's happening.

 

 

Yes, I have noticed that...a bunch of TVs all playing the same thing with slightly different latencies sticks out like a turd in a punchbowl. Same reason I don't want to play in a 5 guitar ensemble...each guy is gonna have a different idea of where the beat is, and God help you all if you try and swing anything. But that said, with one guitar and one amp I've never been bothered by it.  Just me I guess.

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You are absolutely correct.

You wouldn't believe how much time is wasted these days in the studio trying to select between different patches on keyboards, on drum modules and now on modeling amps.

It's a big waste of time and I long for the days when a good group of musicians would come in, set up their drums & guitar rigs and just figgin' play!

It's not rocket science but some musicians these days are acting like it is.

My advice to them - pay less attention to all the toys and spent more time on your song writing and playing skills.

With all due respect to everyone here, I feel that technology is MAKING music into rocket science at times.  It kind of has too, because today's kids are growing up with technology like smartphones, tablets and xBoxes.  Those of us old enough to remember things like pay phones, rabbit ears that got you MAYBE 3 channels and playing war with real BB guns (admittedly stupid, but yeah) with our friends know how different our kids and grandkids are growing up than we did.  It was always a struggle to get my son to go outside and play, and he is 31 now and a very avid gamer.  He still hates to go outside and do things.  I took him hiking in Yosemite when he was 10, and he still cites that as bad parenting on my part because he hated the goat trails we hit to see Rainbow Falls.  But I digress.

 

The thing is, today's guitar player demands the rocket science.  I wore out several albums and a turntable or two slowing down and replaying Led Zeppelin passages trying to cop Jimmy Page's chops.  Today, the plop it into something like RIffStation, and it can even tell them what chords are being played.  Rocket science.  And digital modellers are at the heart of it now for so many kids coming up.

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Too many choices is very confusing to me.  I try to deal with it and pick a few and stick with them.  Then I can get back to focusing on playing and not on tweaking.  One thing I like about the digital stuff is I can have all of my options in fewer devices - easier when I travel between living in Arizona (Winter) and Colorado (Summer).  I can only carry so much stuff.

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Before I know it, two hours has gone by and whatever I came down to play has not been mastered but I have today's perfectly tweeked patch.

 

I

 

 

 

Personally, I'd be lying if I said that isn't what happens to me as well! If I had a better ability to schedule my time and stick to it, I'd probably get more actual music done, and less tone patch tweaking and building - not to mention the JTV editing which I haven't even touched yet.

 

For me, when I want to actually play something, and get lost in the tone exploration that comes from actually playing, I use the looper. I get a patch that I want to experiment with, set up some tonal options, and choose a guitar model or style. Then I make a loop, and hit record, and noodle away. As far as learning new songs, I use my $20 late 70's Japanese made Fender acoustic. No plug, just play.

 

I am guilty, even at rehearsal, of delving too deeply into tweaking and fiddling, and literally have to make myself back away slowly, and just play. So in that sense, I think the Pandora's Box has been opened, at least for me, when I added a JTV59 and DT25 to my HD500.

 

With all the options under the sun, I end up gravitating toward just a few basic choices, when it's actually time to play. I love the Plexi amp model. And I REALLY like the JTV acoustic tones using radatats idea for bypassing the preamp modelling (GENIUS!)

 

Now, as far as your problems with Line6, and customer service, and feeling let down - my best guess is that if you ask the right people in the right way, you will get the solutions you want. Maybe not, I don't know. What I do know, is it won't come from this forum. Venting here is all well and good, but you need to get your issues presented to Line6 in the correct way.

 

GOOD LUCK!

 

p.s. Check out the new USA made Supro amps!! They look really sweet, and are as far from digital as you can get!!

 

Supro USA

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Analog music is  the best but it's too much of a PIA to deal with the only analog recorded medium I have available (LP).  I have to live with 16 bit 48KHz sampled digital CD quality music and I do.  Even with all of the new equipment recording quality these days is not that good for the most part.  Maybe the problem is that the major music consumers these days don't care.   I have built several vintage tube amps and they sound great but they lack the effects that I like to use with my Pod.  I'm now fully Digital most of the time.  JTV, Pod, Digital PA Speaker.  Far from perfect but very flexible.  I love my Line6 gear!  Never had a problem with any of it.

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Personally, I'd be lying if I said that isn't what happens to me as well! If I had a better ability to schedule my time and stick to it, I'd probably get more actual music done, and less tone patch tweaking and building - not to mention the JTV editing which I haven't even touched yet.

 

For me, when I want to actually play something, and get lost in the tone exploration that comes from actually playing, I use the looper. I get a patch that I want to experiment with, set up some tonal options, and choose a guitar model or style. Then I make a loop, and hit record, and noodle away. As far as learning new songs, I use my $20 late 70's Japanese made Fender acoustic. No plug, just play.

 

I am guilty, even at rehearsal, of delving too deeply into tweaking and fiddling, and literally have to make myself back away slowly, and just play. So in that sense, I think the Pandora's Box has been opened, at least for me, when I added a JTV59 and DT25 to my HD500.

 

With all the options under the sun, I end up gravitating toward just a few basic choices, when it's actually time to play. I love the Plexi amp model. And I REALLY like the JTV acoustic tones using radatats idea for bypassing the preamp modelling (GENIUS!)

 

Now, as far as your problems with Line6, and customer service, and feeling let down - my best guess is that if you ask the right people in the right way, you will get the solutions you want. Maybe not, I don't know. What I do know, is it won't come from this forum. Venting here is all well and good, but you need to get your issues presented to Line6 in the correct way.

 

GOOD LUCK!

 

p.s. Check out the new USA made Supro amps!! They look really sweet, and are as far from digital as you can get!!

 

Supro USA

Oh man...Supro's.  The stuff of legend and Led Zep lore....I missed that NAMM announcment lol...too bust checking my email for the 35 time that day I guess....

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Smartphones are not just another toy.  They certainly can be used for entertainment, but to write them off as a toy....

 

I use my smartphone everyday and would be in a tough spot without it.  It tells me the time, the weather, gives me the news, it's my GPS, I get email and text, I use it as my camera, I use it as my internet connection at my office because there's no wifi, I'm constantly using it to look up information, the list goes on and on. 

 

And I don't have a single game installed on it, so it's no toy.  

 

As far as the phone part I maybe drop 3 or 4 calls a year which is far from problematic.  I happen to be on Verizon.  In fact I hate talking on the phone and if I could lose one part of the functionality of a smart phone it would be a relief to not have to talk into it.  

 

How can you compare the "function" of a land line that does one thing to a smartphone that does hundreds of things.  I get a lot more function out of my smartphone.  Haven't had a land line in years and I don't miss it.  Having one line that works 100% of the time but only in your house vs a phone that works, let's say for argument's sake, 90% of the time that you can carry anywhere.  I much prefer having a mobile smart phone, but that's just me.

 

You don't like smartphones, that's fine, don't use one.  Just doesn't make sense to write off a whole technology because it doesn't work for you.  But that seems to be the everybody thinks these days.  I'm tired of hearing "If it doesn't work for me, then obviously it's junk".  

Smartphones are just another toy.

Funny thing is they call them phones and they're suppose to be smart but the worst thing they do is phone calls.

Wow you pay $200 or more for a phone and they drop the signal just like an old $25 phone from years past and spend half the time charging them - no thanks.

In terms of function & dependability they still can't compete with a land line phone.

 

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I pretty much agree with this 127%

:D

Smartphones are not just another toy.  They certainly can be used for entertainment, but to write them off as a toy....

 

I use my smartphone everyday and would be in a tough spot without it.  It tells me the time, the weather, gives me the news, it's my GPS, I get email and text, I use it as my camera, I use it as my internet connection at my office because there's no wifi, I'm constantly using it to look up information, the list goes on and on. 

 

And I don't have a single game installed on it, so it's no toy.  

 

As far as the phone part I maybe drop 3 or 4 calls a year which is far from problematic.  I happen to be on Verizon.  In fact I hate talking on the phone and if I could lose one part of the functionality of a smart phone it would be a relief to not have to talk into it.  

 

How can you compare the "function" of a land line that does one thing to a smartphone that does hundreds of things.  I get a lot more function out of my smartphone.  Haven't had a land line in years and I don't miss it.  Having one line that works 100% of the time but only in your house vs a phone that works, let's say for argument's sake, 90% of the time that you can carry anywhere.  I much prefer having a mobile smart phone, but that's just me.

 

You don't like smartphones, that's fine, don't use one.  Just doesn't make sense to write off a whole technology because it doesn't work for you.  But that seems to be the everybody thinks these days.  I'm tired of hearing "If it doesn't work for me, then obviously it's junk".  

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I use my smartphone everyday and would be in a tough spot without it.  It tells me the time, the weather, gives me the news, it's my GPS, I get email and text, I use it as my camera, I use it as my internet connection at my office because there's no wifi, I'm constantly using it to look up information, the list goes on and on. 

I'm tired of hearing "If it doesn't work for me, then obviously it's junk".  

Not seeing where he called them "junk".  Toys, yes. Junk, nyet.

 

By way of a little humor to "lighten things up", in the bad old days before smart (or cell) phones even existed I:

 

- had a watch to tell me the time

- checked the weather by looking at the sky or watching the morning news.

- watched the evening news for important updates for 30 minutes a day.

- used a map and common sense to locate someplace.  I never once followed my map and common sense onto an active runway.

- called and talked to someone instead of emailing them.  Not surprisingly, someone actually answered -- even at a business when I'd call!

- I took my camera out and took pictures and enjoyed the moment.  No selfies....

 

Now I am NOT saying smartphones are terrible things, but we did manage to survive without them not that all long ago.  Also, we paid a lot more attention to someone when they were speaking to us because we weren't buried in our smartphones while engaged in actual face to face time like seems to be A-OK today.  In fact, that is very rude.

 

So while these devices may not be a toy, they are not the Golden Road to uncomplicated life either.

 

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- used a map and common sense to locate someplace.  I never once followed my map and common sense onto an active runway.

 

 

LMFAO :lol:... or train tracks, drainage ditches, off the end of a pier...lol

 

All of these devices bestowing "convenience" upon us, are doing so at a cost. Over time will make us collectively dumber, and increasingly dependent on technology to accomplish even the simplest of tasks. We've already stopped teaching critical thinking, instead just teaching kids to pass an endless series of standardized tests, so that a school's "progress" (or lack thereof) can somehow be quantified, as a means of securing Federal $$. But who cares if they can think, as long as they have an app to tie their shoes? Welcome to the Idiocracy...an underrated movie btw.

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Not seeing where he called them "junk".  Toys, yes. Junk, nyet.

 

By way of a little humor to "lighten things up", in the bad old days before smart (or cell) phones even existed I:

 

- had a watch to tell me the time

- checked the weather by looking at the sky or watching the morning news.

- watched the evening for my important news for 30 minutes a day.

- used a map and common sense to locate someplace.  I never once followed my map and common sense onto an active runway.

- called and talked to someone instead of emailing them.  Not surprisingly, someone actually answered -- even at a business when I'd call!

- I took my camera out and took pictures and enjoyed the moment.  No selfies....

Now I am NOT saying smartphones are terrible things, but we did manage to survive without them not that all long ago.  Also, we paid a lot more attention to someone when they were speaking to us because we weren't buried in our smartphones while engaged in actual face to face time like seems to be A-OK today.  In fact, that is very rude.

 

So while these devices may not be a toy, they are not the Golden Road to uncomplicated life either.

 

I'm not too young to remember what life was like before smartphones.  Far from it :)

 

I've had the conversation many times with friends about the question of whether or not technology like smartphones have actually made life better.  A lot of things have become more convenient for sure, but uncomplicated isn't one of the benefits.  There are certainly times I've wished to be less connected for a bit.  

 

Technology isn't the holy grail of a happy life for sure.  These things are tools like everything else.  It does become a challenge to "turn off" when all of this information is at our finger tips.  It becomes a matter of maintaining balance.  

 

I'm sure a lot of the same conversations were had when television became popular.  Some of those criticisms were valid but it was peoples reaction to the technology, not the technology itself, that caused problems.  

BTW, I totally agree it is rude to pull out your phone and start doing something in the middle of a conversation with someone.  People still need to learn to be decent human beings. 

 

However I do receive a lot of benefit from said technology and wouldn't want to give it up because some people can't handle it without it taking over their lives.  It's up to people to be responsible for themselves and how they spend their time.  

 

I don't think anyone blames Henry Ford for all the people who have died in car accidents because he made the automobile available to the masses.  Automotive transportation has done a lot to advance our civilization.

 

I see smartphones and the ability to quickly access information as a lot the same way.  It advances what people will be capable to achieve.  I am able to learn things everyday via Google and Wikipedia that would be much harder to come by 15 years ago.  It has torn down the barriers to learning like nothing has since the printing press.

 

Does that mean that everyone will benefit from it?  No, not at all.  There are tons of people who will use it as a crutch to not have to think for themselves, spend all day reading Facebook and Twitter, and looking on TMZ to see the latest celebrity news.  I have a sneaking suspicion though that these folks wouldn't have ended up being the next Albert Einstein regardless :)

 

Yes the OP didn't say smartphones were junk, just toys.  I may have taken a bit of my current cultural frustrations out against his post, maybe more than was deserved.  It's just how it came across to me when I read it.   

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Does that mean that everyone will benefit from it?  No, not at all.  There are tons of people who will use it as a crutch to not have to think for themselves, spend all day reading Facebook and Twitter, and looking on TMZ to see the latest celebrity news.  I have a sneaking suspicion though that these folks wouldn't have ended up being the next Albert Einstein regardless :)

 

 

 

You're right. This is the ugly truth that most won't say out loud...technology is only a benefit for those smart enough to realize it for what it is, a tool to enhance inherent or acquired skills, not as a substitute for them. I think a lot of this stuff is gonna create a widening IQ divide, if you will, given a long enough timeline. Much like we will soon have only the uber rich and the dirt poor, something tells me there will eventually be a small handful of folks with an IQ above room temperature, and over-abundance of mouth breathers with the iThingy 9s surgically implanted in their forearm, blissing themselves out 24/7.

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I'm not too young to remember what life was like before smartphones.  Far from it :)

 

I've had the conversation many times with friends about the question of whether or not technology like smartphones have actually made life better.  A lot of things have become more convenient for sure, but uncomplicated isn't one of the benefits.  There are certainly times I've wished to be less connected for a bit.  

 

Technology isn't the holy grail of a happy life for sure.  These things are tools like everything else.  It does become a challenge to "turn off" when all of this information is at our finger tips.  It becomes a matter of maintaining balance.  

 

I'm sure a lot of the same conversations were had when television became popular.  Some of those criticisms were valid but it was peoples reaction to the technology, not the technology itself, that caused problems.  

BTW, I totally agree it is rude to pull out your phone and start doing something in the middle of a conversation with someone.  People still need to learn to be decent human beings. 

 

However I do receive a lot of benefit from said technology and wouldn't want to give it up because some people can't handle it without it taking over their lives.  It's up to people to be responsible for themselves and how they spend their time.  

 

I don't think anyone blames Henry Ford for all the people who have died in car accidents because he made the automobile available to the masses.  Automotive transportation has done a lot to advance our civilization.

 

I see smartphones and the ability to quickly access information as a lot the same way.  It advances what people will be capable to achieve.  I am able to learn things everyday via Google and Wikipedia that would be much harder to come by 15 years ago.  It has torn down the barriers to learning like nothing has since the printing press.

 

Does that mean that everyone will benefit from it?  No, not at all.  There are tons of people who will use it as a crutch to not have to think for themselves, spend all day reading Facebook and Twitter, and looking on TMZ to see the latest celebrity news.  I have a sneaking suspicion though that these folks wouldn't have ended up being the next Albert Einstein regardless :)

 

Yes the OP didn't say smartphones were junk, just toys.  I may have taken a bit of my current cultural frustrations out against his post, maybe more than was deserved.  It's just how it came across to me when I read it.   

Well stated, all around my friend.  People absolutely do need to be the masters of their own ships.

 

There is to me a simple rule of usefullness in digital (or really anything in life, extended out) devices, no matter they be a POD HD or a smartphone.  That is simply to ask yourself "is this helping me attain my goals?".  IF it is, great.  If it isn't, well then you have to evaluate why you're still doing it, right?  That right there could fill a library of psych books, as in "if people know smoking is bad for them, why then do they persist doing it?"

 

So back to my original post...I have decided that the cost-benefit of keeping myself on the "digital guitar" teat is about negative past my current placement in it.  I have a POD HD500 and a JTV59 that I will keep as they are fun and useful in moderation (for me).  Line6 has been bought out and yeah their overall radio silence act bugs me as a consumer, but overall it may be a great thing personally as it has forced me to think about my goals in guitar playing. When I started playing at age 8, I wasn't think to myself "gee, I want to be able to make great patches some day"...I was thinking "I want to play my guitar as good as Jimmy and Ritchie and become eff'ing awesome at playing it in general".  I'm better served studying music theory then fiddling with knobs and parameters.  make sense?

 

As an aside, I also have a DROID RAZR smartphone that I will likely replace at contract rebnewal time with a "feature" phone that does text and calls because I want to unplug myself from it more and more.  In other words, no social crap...no email...just a phone for MY convenience and the ability to send a quick note if needs be.

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Could I impose upon you to elaborate on this, or point me to the right thread? Are we just talking starting with an empty patch and leaving out the amp model?

 

Well; radatats came up with a patch idea that uses two amp model slots - but leaves one empty, and turns down the volume all the way on the second amp model.

As near as I can tell, it does somehow bypass all the preamp routing - the empty amp model level is controlled via the HD mixer. Here is the concept in more detail:

Acoustic Solution For Jtv With Dt Amps
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