If only Line 6 made a programmable switcher/swapper.

[optofonik]

I'm pretty much done evaluating the HX Stomp for use with my trusty HX Effects and other pedals  (I think the Stomp's a keeper). Now I'm in the market for an ES-5/8 or the EFX-LE/MK-V. After reading the manuals and watching various videos I really wish Line 6 would do one of these switcher/swapper pedals. Line 6 has a very dialed in and logical UI with the Helix line and the UIs on these switcher/swappers are straight outta that 1980s DX-7 era of UIs. Sure, there is software available for these switchers  but with the HX Effects/HX Stomp UIs I rarely need to use HX Edit.

[bypassvalve]

If line 6 made a pedal loop switcher like the ES-8 with the capacitive touch assignment functionality of helix it would be a done deal

[optofonik]

1 hour ago, bypassvalve said:

If line 6 made a pedal loop switcher like the ES-8 with the capacitive touch assignment functionality of helix it would be a done deal

The number of pedals it would take to replicate everything the Helix offers would be astronomically expensive and require a pedalboard that would be equally expansive. Offering a switcher/ swapper actually seems like a natural progression for Line 6 considering how popular these things have become.

 

At the right price point Line 6 would crush the competition, especially considering the superior UI that Line 6 already has.

 

Are you listening, Line 6?!

[datacommando]

13 hours ago, optofonik said:

Are you listening, Line 6?!

Highly unlikely in this forum, which is user to user.
 

Line 6 staff rarely drop in, therefore any suggestions for perceived improvements and/or modifications to the HX range need to be posted on the Line 6 Ideascale website - not on here.

 

The “sticky” at the top of this forum is to let other users what you have added to IdeaScale in the hope that others agree and will vote it up.

Also see, "Why is Line 6 not responding???" at the top.

 

https://line6.ideascale.com

 

[scotterp]

If you add up the cost of a Stomp + Es-8, wouldn't a Helix Floor give you that and more?

[bypassvalve]

Talking about a pedal switcher, 8+ loops and maybe some built in FX (like ms-3), but capacitive switches, line 6 UI, and super compact form factor. It would sell like crazy, the ES-8 does even without effects built in. 

[salty09]

I use an HX Effects with a voodoo labs hex in one of the HX Effects  loops. It works pretty darn great using the HX effects to control the loop states of the Hex. The HEx even has one loop that is independent, so I can stick my favorite fuzz out in front of the HX effects and still control it with the HX effects. Might be a good solution instead of buying the ES-8. Think the HEx is less than $300 and the HX Effects has the full blown command center, so the two together works similar to the ES-8. 

 

[bypassvalve]

That's a really good idea. ES-8 is irreplaceable for its signal chain routing functionality and it's obscene control of buffers. Each individual loop has a buffer on the loop input and the loop output, (nope just input and output buffers) as well as guitar input buffer and ES-8 out buffer, each one of those buffers can be on or off programmed per preset. Then you can re-order the signal chain of the loops, as well as drop loops down onto a parallel path. It's legit like working with a Helix but using your own 8 pedals, reorder, swap, buffers on/off per pedal, parallel distortion with clean DI reverb, dry clean compression with a volume pedal that can bring in a screaming delay lead in parallel, no end to the combinations. And that's before you add midi control, ES-8 can take expression input and spit it out as midi to anywhere you want, even multiple CCs at once. 

[optofonik]

 

On 5/18/2020 at 9:29 AM, scotterp said:

If you add up the cost of a Stomp + Es-8, wouldn't a Helix Floor give you that and more?

 

The Stomp and HX Effects are for use on a pedalboard, the Helix Floor is a pedalboard. Also, the Helix floor doesn't have 8 stereo send/returns and blocks, only 4.

 

 

On 5/18/2020 at 5:58 PM, bypassvalve said:

Talking about a pedal switcher, 8+ loops and maybe some built in FX (like es-5), but capacitive switches, line 6 UI, and super compact form factor. It would sell like crazy, the ES-8 does even without effects built in. 

 

You mean like the MS-3? I wouldn't want built in FX, that's what the Stomp and HX Effect are for. I want an ES-8, MusicomLabs MKV, RJM MM, switcher only form factor with the HX UI and workflow.

 

On 5/17/2020 at 2:12 AM, datacommando said:

Highly unlikely in this forum, which is user to user.
 

Line 6 staff rarely drop in, therefore any suggestions for perceived improvements and/or modifications to the HX range need to be posted on the Line 6 Ideascale website - not on here.

 

The “sticky” at the top of this forum is to let other users what you have added to IdeaScale in the hope that others agree and will vote it up.

Also see, "Why is Line 6 not responding???" at the top.

 

https://line6.ideascale.com

 

 

I did submit to Ideascale in addition to posting here for opinions within the user community.

 

On 5/19/2020 at 2:28 PM, salty09 said:

I use an HX Effects with a voodoo labs hex in one of the HX Effects  loops. It works pretty darn great using the HX effects to control the loop states of the Hex. The HEx even has one loop that is independent, so I can stick my favorite fuzz out in front of the HX effects and still control it with the HX effects. Might be a good solution instead of buying the ES-8. Think the HEx is less than $300 and the HX Effects has the full blown command center, so the two together works similar to the ES-8. 

 

 

The HEX doesn't have enough loops and doesn't have stereo I/O from what I can see.

 

On 5/19/2020 at 4:14 PM, bypassvalve said:

That's a really good idea. ES-8 is irreplaceable for its signal chain routing functionality and it's obscene control of buffers. Each individual loop has a buffer on the loop input and the loop output, as well as guitar input buffer and ES-8 out buffer, each one of those buffers can be on or off programmed per preset. Then you can re-order the signal chain of the loops, as well as drop loops down onto a parallel path. It's legit like working with a Helix but using your own 8 pedals, reorder, swap, buffers on/off per pedal, parallel distortion with clean DI reverb, dry clean compression with a volume pedal that can bring in a screaming delay lead in parallel, no end to the combinations. And that's before you add midi control, ES-8 can take expression input and spit it out as midi to anywhere you want, even multiple CCs at once. 

 

I can see from the picture of your board, as well as your words, we are in absolute agreement. I'm glad someone else sees the crazy vast potential the "HX Switch" (yes, I just did that) would have.

 

Imagine an HX Effects, HX Stomp, and an HX Switch as the foundation of a pedalboard. If Line 6 did it right , the "HX Switch" could even have a successful run for the money against the comparable Switchblade. Quite easily, actually.

 

[datacommando]

4 hours ago, optofonik said:

 

I did submit to Ideascale in addition to posting here for opinions within the user community.

Excellent, but my reply was essentially to highlight your question:- “Are you listening, Line 6?!”

 

The answer to that was and still is - highly unlikely.

 

Let’s hope your suggestion gets upvoted on Ideascale.

 

Stay safe.

[optofonik]

6 hours ago, datacommando said:

Excellent, but my reply was essentially to highlight your question:- “Are you listening, Line 6?!”

 

The answer to that was and still is - highly unlikely.

 

Let’s hope your suggestion gets upvoted on Ideascale.

 

Stay safe.

 

Yeah, I get that. I guess a lot of folks actually think companies are perusing forums for such ideas; some do of course, but most don't. I sometimes use the line as something of a rhetorical "full stop". I do think it's a brilliant idea, though, so I can't imagine someone at Line 6 R&D hasn't already considered it as a way to expand the Helix ecosystem. The recent unification of the Helix product line with the Helix Core engine opens up a lot of possibilities for Helix Core based products and the "HX Switch" is the next logical progression of the Helix line.

[Digital_Igloo]

We've looked at it but unfortunately, the pedal switcher market isn't big enough for us to bother. We have limited resources and need to pick our battles carefully.

 

Say the market changed and we were to revisit; any other features you'd like to see?

[datacommando]

On 5/20/2020 at 4:22 PM, optofonik said:

I do think it's a brilliant idea, though, so I can't imagine someone at Line 6 R&D hasn't already considered it as a way to expand the Helix ecosystem

You got lucky - a message from DI.

[bypassvalve]

22 hours ago, Digital_Igloo said:

any other features you'd like to see?

 

Phantom powered from midi in, Helix stomp type UI but each block is one of your pedals, capacitive switches, expression pedal input and expression-to-midi internal conversion, the ability to color code the blocks and rings based on what pedals you have in the loops, and some kind of fx send / return to where you can run the pedal switcher in 4CM with the Helix, that way you can have some pedals pre, some pedals post, some in parallel, switch it around per preset. Individual loop buffers. LFOs, envelopes, tuner, pre and post EQ, input and output gates, maybe individual loop gates, individual loop micro delays...

[optofonik]

9 hours ago, Digital_Igloo said:

We've looked at it but unfortunately, the pedal switcher market isn't big enough for us to bother. We have limited resources and need to pick our battles carefully.

 

Say the market changed and we were to revisit; any other features you'd like to see?

 

Thanks for responding in the forum, DI. Here are some of the features I'd like to see on the HX Switcher:

• Dedicated stereo/dual mono inputs. Stereo output.
• The ability to gang mono sends and returns for stereo use.
• Volume pedal loop.
• More than one programmable expression pedal input.
• 3 buffers: input/movable/output
• Ability to enabled/disabled buffers.
• Input impedance: 2.2 MΩ; / output impedance: 100Ω.
• Ability to Isolate output.
• Phase reversal capability for each loop.
• MIDI in / out.
• Command Center
• Programming via HX Edit.
• A color screen only slightly larger than the HX Stomp with same UI
• Digital scribble strips if they didn't contribute too much to the overall size.
• A form factor no wider than two HX Stomps side by side, a bit smaller top to bottom, and same height: 14" x 4" x 2". Or, just use the HX Effects enclosure for economies of scale. The HX Effects enclosure would provide the aforementioned scribble strips but the display of the Stomp is a bit nicer.

 

Because Line 6 has been around so long and has become so ubiquitous I sometimes forget it's a relatively small company here in LA County and resources are indeed limited compared to global juggernauts like Roland. I still think that if Line 6 put out an HX Switcher, at a competitive price point, the market would suddenly get a bit bigger and be led by Line 6.

 

Thanks again, DI, for taking a moment to respond as you did. Stay healthy. Stay safe.

 

[Digital_Igloo]

22 hours ago, optofonik said:

Because Line 6 has been around so long and has become so ubiquitous I sometimes forget it's a relatively small company here in LA County and resources are indeed limited compared to global juggernauts like Roland. I still think that if Line 6 put out an HX Switcher, at a competitive price point, the market would suddenly get a bit bigger and be led by Line 6.

 

Thanks again, DI, for taking a moment to respond as you did. Stay healthy. Stay safe.

Unfortunately, the switcher market would have to get a LOT bigger for it to warrant stealing resources away from our bread and butter product lines. We had some mockups floating around for a while (IIRC, they would've been *expensive*), but they keep getting brought up, so who knows?

[Lone_Poor_Boy]

On 5/22/2020 at 12:20 PM, Digital_Igloo said:

We've looked at it but unfortunately, the pedal switcher market isn't big enough for us to bother.

 

That's what I assumed right when I read the second post. Way too niche in an already niche, and competitive, market.

[optofonik]

On 5/23/2020 at 4:17 PM, Digital_Igloo said:

. . . they keep getting brought up, so who knows?

 

If it happens I'll be one of the first to ditch the ES-8 (and maybe even my Pedal Palette).

[bypassvalve]

How ridiculous would it be if you had 8 loops, but were somehow able to use them each one interchangeably with the helix blocks. Instead of 4CM which gives you basically two options, pedal before or pedal after, it's a switcher that spits out each loop separately via 8 channel optical, helix eats the optical, then you can bring in each loop separately and use it like a normal block. Any order, any position, any combination of DSP and pedal loops

[Digital_Igloo]

On 5/25/2020 at 8:35 AM, bypassvalve said:

How ridiculous would it be if you had 8 loops, but were somehow able to use them each one interchangeably with the helix blocks. Instead of 4CM which gives you basically two options, pedal before or pedal after, it's a switcher that spits out each loop separately via 8 channel optical, helix eats the optical, then you can bring in each loop separately and use it like a normal block. Any order, any position, any combination of DSP and pedal loops

The problem is that for every Helix block you use, unless it's directly before or after another Helix block, you're accruing latency, since going in and out of Helix processing requires A/D/A conversion. Presumably, that's why the BOSS MS-3 keeps all of its effects together and you can't insert a pedal between them.

 

Of course, if you run multiple digital stompboxes without an analog dry path you end up with accrued latency too, so...

[optofonik]

8 hours ago, Digital_Igloo said:

The problem is that for every Helix block you use, unless it's directly before or after another Helix block, you're accruing latency, since going in and out of Helix processing requires A/D/A conversion. Presumably, that's why the BOSS MS-3 keeps all of its effects together and you can't insert a pedal between them.

 

Of course, if you run multiple digital stompboxes without an analog dry path you end up with accrued latency too, so...

 

 

So every instance of the signal going out of the box is DA converted and every instance coming onto the box is AD converted? That means that for 8 loop blocks in a Helix to be checker-boarded with internal Helix blocks, there are 16 conversions happening. Yikes. How many ms would the latency be for something like that? Without studio DAW level DSP I would imagine it would be unusable.

 

[datacommando]

8 hours ago, optofonik said:

So every instance of the signal going out of the box is DA converted and every instance coming onto the box is AD converted? 

Uh?
Signal leaves Helix -> Signal returns to Helix (leaves the digital realm and then returns to the digital realm)

What did you think was happening to the signal?

Plus, did you think this would not have a cumulative effect?

[Digital_Igloo]

On 5/22/2020 at 5:39 PM, optofonik said:

Input impedance: 2.2 MΩ

Why 2.2M Ohm specifically?

13 hours ago, optofonik said:

So every instance of the signal going out of the box is DA converted and every instance coming onto the box is AD converted? That means that for 8 loop blocks in a Helix to be checker-boarded with internal Helix blocks, there are 16 conversions happening. Yikes. How many ms would the latency be for something like that? Without studio DAW level DSP I would imagine it would be unusable.

If we were to make a switcher, it'd have to be analog/relay. Any conversion would be into and out of any Line 6 processing (if it had any to begin with). So sort of the opposite of Helix, where instead of a D/A/D for every loop, you'd have an A/D/A for every time you wanted to insert a Line 6 amp/effect (or looper or tuner or whatever) between your pedals. I can only assume that's part of why Boss didn't add processing to their ES-5/8 switchers.

[optofonik]

 

On 5/27/2020 at 9:36 AM, Digital_Igloo said:

Why 2.2M Ohm specifically?

 

If we were to make a switcher, it'd have to be analog/relay. Any conversion would be into and out of any Line 6 processing (if it had any to begin with). So sort of the opposite of Helix, where instead of a D/A/D for every loop, you'd have an A/D/A for every time you wanted to insert a Line 6 amp/effect (or looper or tuner or whatever) between your pedals. I can only assume that's part of why Boss didn't add processing to their ES-5/8 switchers.

 

 

Headroom of sorts. You can tone down highs if they get a bit too much but you can't add what isn't there; unless I'm mistaken about impedance as it relates to pickups. Better to have more and need less.

 

My referencing the latency thing was strictly related to bypassvalves comment and the number of conversions that could accrue with so much I /O. As for an HX Switch, I understand how it it would be "sort of the opposite" of a Helix. Sorry, I didn't mean to muddy the waters.

 

Personally, I would not want any effects included in an HX Switch, that's what the Helix / HX units are for.