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Paulzx

Still struggling for authentic hard rock tone

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I know.. it's ridiculous with all the options, I've had the Helix for a while now and still not happy with my hard rock tones. I have learnt that despite what the youtube guys say, you cannot copy their demo patches and get the same sonic result, so there's no out of the box solution, you just have to use your own gear and get twiddling in the menu's.

 

I did start watching a lot of those rig run down's with some of the big name guitar players. If you have this amp, this cab, these pedals... it still doesn't really work, there's much more to it than just being able to replicate real tones just because we have emulations in the Helix of the same gear. I think quite a lot of the time, sheer volume has a lot to do with it, they're playing big venues and most of us are playing at much lower volume, which again changes characteristics.

 

Anyway, my main situation is this - If I dial in a decent hi gain rock tone using Helix cabs, I tend to get a fairly good tone, they always seem a lot tighter on the bottom end than the IR's, but they're a bit thin sounding, not quite enough depth, so not that authentic. If I replace them with IR's, typically some kind of Marshall IR, immediately you get that depth and everything sounds much bigger and more saturated - but you get too much boomy bottom end and also a lot of top end fizz, which I think is really what makes the IR's sound so huge, but it's not authentic if you're trying to sound more like a real amp, cab and pedals.

 

So, it's either too much with the IR's or not quite enough with the stock cabs. Obviously I try to EQ block my way to a more desirable result in both instances, but what I've found here is that yes, EQ'ing does alter some of those undesirable frequencies, but it doesn't transform the sound completely into an authentic tone. You need to be relatively close to begin with. I'm no EQ expert but I do understand the basics of cutting the low frequencies and some of the highs. I try not to boost anything if I can help it. Maybe some of you guys are better with the EQ and have cracked this?

 

When I see an artist play a demo through something like an ENGL head and cab, with a few pedals out front, it sounds hi gain and tight, no boomy bottom end and no unrealistic fizzy saturated top end, but still quite a nice 'full' sounding tone, I can't replicate that. I have six electric guitars, all super strat types with hum buckers, Jacksons and an Ibanez, all suitable for this. Have a variety of IR's of most of the popular hard rock cabs from 3 sigma, redwirez.. all quite similar sounding.

 

I need to crack this guys, what am I doing wrong?

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What are you listening through? With the built in cabs, reflections around 25% is hard to really hear it do anything, but you get it up around 25-30% and it fills out, then if you turn it back to 0% it's real easy to hear it do something to the negative, it goes dead. Can you post a preset? 

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I've got the Helix running into two flat response Alto professional PA speakers, they are in a small room though. Early reflections on the cab? They are mostly set to zero - I'll try turning that up. When you say post the preset do you mean attach the actual .hlx file?

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1 minute ago, Paulzx said:

When you say post the preset do you mean attach the actual .hlx file?

 

Yeah upload the preset so I can load it up and see what everything is set at, 5 bucks says in 5 knob turns it's as real as any hard rock recording ever made

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Chances are your boomy bottom end is coming from the Altos either because you have them placed on the floor as floor monitors and are getting bass coupling, and/or you have the contour button engaged which is further boosting the bottom end.  What you have to remember is that Alto's primary market is the recorded music disco/karaoke crowd.  You can somewhat fix this situation by making sure you don't have the contour button on and placing them vertically on stands.

This is also why it's not always wise to let low price be the driving factor in your buying decision on speakers...especially with a premium modeler.

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1 hour ago, bypassvalve said:

 

Yeah upload the preset so I can load it up and see what everything is set at, 5 bucks says in 5 knob turns it's as real as any hard rock recording ever made

 

Haha love it! Just doing the 2.92 update then will attach a couple of presets

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44 minutes ago, DunedinDragon said:

Chances are your boomy bottom end is coming from the Altos either because you have them placed on the floor as floor monitors and are getting bass coupling, and/or you have the contour button engaged which is further boosting the bottom end.  What you have to remember is that Alto's primary market is the recorded music disco/karaoke crowd.  You can somewhat fix this situation by making sure you don't have the contour button on and placing them vertically on stands.

This is also why it's not always wise to let low price be the driving factor in your buying decision on speakers...especially with a premium modeler.

 

Interesting.. these certainly weren't cheap, and they're on stands not on the floor. I got these as recommendations from here actually as at the time, these seemed to be a popular choice as flat response speakers for the Helix. That may be out of date now because I've had these for a while now. I did check the contour, one was switched on, one was off, so i'll see if that makes any difference at all

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Here's my advice...I had one of the first Helix units shipped from Sweetwater in Oct. 2015. 
I now have a Stomp for when I can't bring in my "real rig" (Mesa TC-50 with Bogner 4x12 cab and TC Electronic G System)

And I get my Stomp sounding damn near as good as that real rig. I play classic rock stuff like Queen, Zeppelin, AC/DC, Bon Jovi, Heart, Journey, Boston, Van Halen, etc. and I go for a hard rock tone with lots of gain.

Anyway...here's my solution for you:
Start with a new preset (blank)

Put in the "Archetype" amp model and a 4x12 cab. Hell...you can even start with the "Amp + Cab" for the Archetype (though I use an Ownhammer IR with mine). 
Now without adding anything else...hit a big "E" chord. Feel that smile on your face? This is your amp model choice. 
Now play some lead and end it with a sustained note with lots of vibrato. Hear that note singing back to you? And the new big smile?

The Archetype is the best sounding amp for classic/hard rock with a heavy feel on the Helix.  I went through them all...and yes the Rectifier model sounds damn good as does the 2204 Modified and a few others. But the Archetype stands out to me (I don't use any distortion pedals in front of the amp...just the amp distortion itself) as THE best of the bunch for getting THAT tone.

Now all you have to do is put a little noise gate and wah pedal in front of the amp and adjust your snapshots to have a crunch and lead tone. All I literally do between crunch and lead is dial up the gain from "5" to "7" and turn up the Master a couple of notches and then add a delay. 

That's all you need for an awesome big fat round brown rock sound.

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Hey Robbie, that's perfect, that's exactly what i'm looking for and that is my favourite amp model, mostly because for a lead sound it's quite thick and cuts nicely, the other high gain amps seem to be a little thin and fizzy for lead. I've never dialled in a tone with Archetype that i'm super happy with but i'll try your suggestion.

 

I'm still going to post the patches for bypassvalve to look at, and dunedindragon's suggestion turning off the contour on the speakers has improved things too

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16 hours ago, bypassvalve said:

 

Yeah upload the preset so I can load it up and see what everything is set at, 5 bucks says in 5 knob turns it's as real as any hard rock recording ever made

 

Attaching x3 presets all basic patches with an IR slot and a stock cab slot, to alternate between the two - see what you think

Arch test 1.hlx Engl test 1.hlx Marshall test 1.hlx 095 LX TDR HG6.wav

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14 hours ago, robbieb61 said:

Put in the "Archetype" amp model and a 4x12 cab. Hell...you can even start with the "Amp + Cab" for the Archetype (though I use an Ownhammer IR with mine). 
Now without adding anything else...hit a big "E" chord. Feel that smile on your face? This is your amp model choice. 
Now play some lead and end it with a sustained note with lots of vibrato. Hear that note singing back to you? And the new big smile?

 

Okay so followed your guide - couldn't get quite the saturation of distortion so i added the tube screamer pedal first, which helps a fair bit.

I was pleasantly surprised at the result, I added a high & low cut EQ block which also helps but it can be improved still, and have uploaded for bypassvalve to look at.

 

I added an IR block to A/B against the stock cab. It's weird because when you play just by yourself, the IR sounds so much fuller and more alive but when you jam with a record, the stock cab sits in the mix so much better, the IR is way to thin on the top end and too bassy on the low end - at least to sound authentic when playing along with something. I guess you could EQ the IR to within an inch of it's life so sound less fizzy or boomy, I've not tried that yet.

 

I'm interested to see how good I can get the stock cab to sound with the Archetype lead amp. So much tighter on the bottom - but, does lack a little bit of bite on the gain. Maybe that could be boosted somehow?

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I use a similar speaker (Alto TS308) positioned on a stand so that there is no bass coupling. For sure there will be better speakers, no doubt about that, but for my needs (as a complete amateur) it does the job.

 

I use the Ownhammer IRs for a while now (bought their Evolution pack as well as their 412 MRBW GNR 25 multi-mic pack) and I agree that in particular for the 412 cabs there is much more "low end" compared to stock cabs. This may be the boominess or muddiness that you described. What I do to reduce this is to increase the low cut frequency in the IR block to 110 - 130 Hz depending on the IR file. (Please note that the low-cut in the IR block is more subtle than the low cut in an EQ block.) In addition I sometimes roll back the bass on the amp mode itself. For a more tight bottom end just add a tube screamer with gain set to between 0 and 1 and tone to your preference (I usually keep it at the standard settings though). You may need to reduce the gain on your amp a bit if you do this.

 

I've built (to my ears) decent rock tones this way using the 2204, 2204 mod and PlexiBrt models.

For heavier tones the Rectifier and the Revv models are my favourites.

 

Hope this helps ...

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Paulzx, I downloaded your presets and fooled around with them. Now, all this hard rock stuff isn't my COT, but still, it seemed to me that these patches have *huge* amounts of drive. In case your plan was to use those as rhythm sounds, I'd say it's quite too much gain - and I only checked with medium level PUs. Do you have your Guitar Input Pad on or off? Mine is off (which is the Helix' default), but even when switched to on, it's still a whole lot of gain.

Also, your Scream 808 settings aren't exactly what people usually do. You usually slap an 808 type drive in front of an already driven amp to a) possibly boost it a bit and - more importantly - b) keep the low end a bit tighter (808 kinda overdrives work as a sort of high mid or even treble boost). With the gain as high as in your patches, you are defeating that purpose already, because 808 drives aren't tight on their own. Also, running two noticeable drives serially (808 and amp in your examples) usually doesn't tighten up things, in fact more to the opposite.

Having said all that, before you start worrying about cabinets and what not, I would recommend you to have a look at your gain structure.

 

Also, if you want, post a recording of your DI guitar and some sound examples (from YT or wherever) demonstrating what you're after. Adjusting anything with different guitars and playing than yours usually makes no sense.

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4 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

Less cork sniffing and more playing I say.....


Yes.

 

@OP Paulzx: I don’t believe you’ve described your audience context. Are you playing gigs in a cover band? If so, do you really think your audience hears or cares about these details? Do you think they leave the show saying ‘ Wow. That guitar sound was either pretty thin and fizzy on the high end or too boomy on the low end. What a disaster!’ The fact that you’re playing a Helix means you’re already giving them a superior sound than they are used to hearing in most cases.

 

And if you’re just playing for yourself .... stop fussing and play more. You could spend forever in this black hole of perfect tone - seeking.

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3 hours ago, silverhead said:

And if you’re just playing for yourself .... stop fussing and play more. You could spend forever in this black hole of perfect tone - seeking.

Wise words, only get what you need to help you along and focus and becoming a good guitar player

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6 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

Paulzx, I downloaded your presets and fooled around with them. Now, all this hard rock stuff isn't my COT, but still, it seemed to me that these patches have *huge* amounts of drive. In case your plan was to use those as rhythm sounds, I'd say it's quite too much gain - and I only checked with medium level PUs. Do you have your Guitar Input Pad on or off? Mine is off (which is the Helix' default), but even when switched to on, it's still a whole lot of gain.

Also, your Scream 808 settings aren't exactly what people usually do. You usually slap an 808 type drive in front of an already driven amp to a) possibly boost it a bit and - more importantly - b) keep the low end a bit tighter (808 kinda overdrives work as a sort of high mid or even treble boost). With the gain as high as in your patches, you are defeating that purpose already, because 808 drives aren't tight on their own. Also, running two noticeable drives serially (808 and amp in your examples) usually doesn't tighten up things, in fact more to the opposite.

Having said all that, before you start worrying about cabinets and what not, I would recommend you to have a look at your gain structure.

 

Also, if you want, post a recording of your DI guitar and some sound examples (from YT or wherever) demonstrating what you're after. Adjusting anything with different guitars and playing than yours usually makes no sense.

 

Thanks, appreciate your response and i will look into those points, as to the gain, I just do what sounds right to get that classic hi gain sound i'm after. Others don't seem to always need a distortion pedal in there at all. Guitar pad is off by the way - is is better to have that switched on?

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4 hours ago, silverhead said:


Yes.

 

@OP Paulzx: I don’t believe you’ve described your audience context. Are you playing gigs in a cover band? If so, do you really think your audience hears or cares about these details? Do you think they leave the show saying ‘ Wow. That guitar sound was either pretty thin and fizzy on the high end or too boomy on the low end. What a disaster!’ The fact that you’re playing a Helix means you’re already giving them a superior sound than they are used to hearing in most cases.

 

And if you’re just playing for yourself .... stop fussing and play more. You could spend forever in this black hole of perfect tone - seeking.

 

Understand the points above, not playing live at moment, just in a room at home. Hard rock guitar is my thing. I bought the Helix to emulate that, so when i get a good tone it makes me more enthusiastic to play. It irritates me when I'm unhappy with my tones, so I'm afraid it is something I want to crack. End of the day i'm not looking for a perfect tone, my question was really to see if anyone is doing something in their patches that i'm missing, for this type of sound.

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6 minutes ago, Paulzx said:

 

Thanks, appreciate your response and i will look into those points, as to the gain, I just do what sounds right to get that classic hi gain sound i'm after. Others don't seem to always need a distortion pedal in there at all.

 

Well, with modern amps you usually don't need any drive pedals to get the desired gain amounts. Which is why most people tend to utilize TS kind of drives as high mid/treble boosters rather than having them add drive on their own. Helps to keep the lows tight on the target amp.

 

Quote

Guitar pad is off by the way - is is better to have that switched on?

 

That really depends on whether your guitars are pretty hot - in that case it might be a good idea to keep it on (it's backing up the input level). Quite some people recommend to have it on regardless of the guitar(s) used, which is what I also did at first, but after a while I noticed that with my main guitars (featuring medium output pickups) I would get better level and gain balances with it off. It's a pretty delicate decision, especially in case you created lots of patches already, simply because it's a global setting which will affect all your patches. Get's dramatically noticeable regarding the balance of clean and overdriven sounds. So IMO it's pretty wise to check some things with both settings out and then stick with the better working one for a whole while to come.

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On Arch: mic to 4 inches, high cut to 9.6k, reflections to 33%. 

 

On Engl: mic distance 6 inches, low cut 73Hz, reflections 29%

 

On Marsh: mic distance 4.5 inches, low cut off, reflections 28%. 

 

Any mids lost from mic position you can add back with a little post EQ, that's what they do at the board, but you want that mic position sound to scoop first, that's how you know it's in phase. 

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What guitars are you using? And what pickups? 
My guitars all have Duncan JB's or Dimarzio Evolution & Fusion pickups. So they are all hot. 

Maybe you aren't hitting the input with enough signal?  I had a weaker pickup in one of my guitars and it made a huge difference in loss of gain on my sounds.

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On 5/25/2020 at 2:28 AM, Paulzx said:

 

Attaching x3 presets all basic patches with an IR slot and a stock cab slot, to alternate between the two - see what you think

Arch test 1.hlx 13.76 kB · 6 downloads Engl test 1.hlx 13.76 kB · 4 downloads Marshall test 1.hlx 13.75 kB · 4 downloads 095 LX TDR HG6.wav 8.08 kB · 4 downloads

 

I only had the opportunity to download the Arch test 1.hlx, but it's kind of impossible to diagnose the problem since you're using a stock cab and an IR (which I don't have), or at least don't have in the same slot.  Because of that I can't really tell what your mic'ing is doing which is fundamental to the tone you're getting.  Although there's nothing wrong with doing that it is a pretty unusual setup.  Most people will use either an IR or stock cab setup.  Chances are you could simplify the setup by just using a dual cab and get most, if not all of the benefit you would typically get from an IR.

As far as the things I see that could be problematic, I saw where you're using a SM57 mic on the stock cabinet.  A lot of folks do this because they're familiar with SM57's but quite honestly that's a pretty limited mic as far as frequency range and tone capture.  I don't know if you've watched much of Jason Sadites YouTube videos but he commonly uses a combination of MD421 dynamic and a ribbon mic like an R121 as do I.  The advantage is that combination provides a very nice and natural capture of most cabinets with very good clarity and articulation as well as smoothness and beef in the tone and eliminates a lot of harshness.  He demonstrates the use of this in almost all of his amp dialing in videos.  I myself prefer to use just a single IR that combines those two mics as it's less labor intensive than building a dual cab setup.  I'd encourage you to start there and see if that doesn't get you more in the ballpark of the tone you're looking for as a good foundation.

One of the other best practices that Jason Sadites demonstrates is using a final parametric EQ on many of his presets.  Not only does that provide a steeper slope on the high cuts and low cuts than does the high and low cut EQ, but it also allows you a way to to make any final adjustments in  specific frequency ranges for the preset as a whole as a final "polishing" of the sound.

Generally these two things work in conjunction with each other.  If you find yourself trying to tweak too much in the EQ that's a good indication you have the wrong cabinet and mic setup.  If you get that right you typically won't need to make too many adjustments in the final EQ.

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2 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

 

I only had the opportunity to download the Arch test 1.hlx, but it's kind of impossible to diagnose the problem since you're using a stock cab and an IR (which I don't have), or at least don't have in the same slot. 

 

The IR is in his posting, too. And ever since 2.9x the IR slot position is irrelevant (besides, there's just one IR in the patch, so even with an older FW version it wouldn't be too tough to assign things).

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16 hours ago, bypassvalve said:

On Arch: mic to 4 inches, high cut to 9.6k, reflections to 33%. 

 

On Engl: mic distance 6 inches, low cut 73Hz, reflections 29%

 

On Marsh: mic distance 4.5 inches, low cut off, reflections 28%. 

 

Any mids lost from mic position you can add back with a little post EQ, that's what they do at the board, but you want that mic position sound to scoop first, that's how you know it's in phase. 

 

Cool.. Going to try this out.. will post results!

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8 hours ago, robbieb61 said:

What guitars are you using? And what pickups? 
My guitars all have Duncan JB's or Dimarzio Evolution & Fusion pickups. So they are all hot. 

Maybe you aren't hitting the input with enough signal?  I had a weaker pickup in one of my guitars and it made a huge difference in loss of gain on my sounds.

 

Oh god don't ask me what all the pick ups are haha - but you'll have a better idea when I tell you the guitars i'm using..

 

Jackson PC-1 with sustainer (professional)

Jackson PC archtop (professional)

Jackson JS-32 (budget)

Ibanez RG350 (kinda budget)

 

As well as a few others, but you get the idea that i'm using mainly high quality super strat type guitars, all with humbuckers, no single coil stuff

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3 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

 

I only had the opportunity to download the Arch test 1.hlx, but it's kind of impossible to diagnose the problem since you're using a stock cab and an IR (which I don't have), or at least don't have in the same slot.  Because of that I can't really tell what your mic'ing is doing which is fundamental to the tone you're getting.  Although there's nothing wrong with doing that it is a pretty unusual setup.  Most people will use either an IR or stock cab setup.  Chances are you could simplify the setup by just using a dual cab and get most, if not all of the benefit you would typically get from an IR.

As far as the things I see that could be problematic, I saw where you're using a SM57 mic on the stock cabinet.  A lot of folks do this because they're familiar with SM57's but quite honestly that's a pretty limited mic as far as frequency range and tone capture.  I don't know if you've watched much of Jason Sadites YouTube videos but he commonly uses a combination of MD421 dynamic and a ribbon mic like an R121 as do I.  The advantage is that combination provides a very nice and natural capture of most cabinets with very good clarity and articulation as well as smoothness and beef in the tone and eliminates a lot of harshness.  He demonstrates the use of this in almost all of his amp dialing in videos.  I myself prefer to use just a single IR that combines those two mics as it's less labor intensive than building a dual cab setup.  I'd encourage you to start there and see if that doesn't get you more in the ballpark of the tone you're looking for as a good foundation.

One of the other best practices that Jason Sadites demonstrates is using a final parametric EQ on many of his presets.  Not only does that provide a steeper slope on the high cuts and low cuts than does the high and low cut EQ, but it also allows you a way to to make any final adjustments in  specific frequency ranges for the preset as a whole as a final "polishing" of the sound.

Generally these two things work in conjunction with each other.  If you find yourself trying to tweak too much in the EQ that's a good indication you have the wrong cabinet and mic setup.  If you get that right you typically won't need to make too many adjustments in the final EQ.

 

Hey Duned.. some interesting stuff in there that I need to check out, thanks. As Sacha said, I did include the IR - now, the only reason there is a cab slot and an IR slot in those patches is purely to A/B them one at a time to see truly, what sounds more real. I wouldn't have them both on at same time, final patch would eliminate the unwanted one you see.

 

You're right, I use the SM57 because I'm most familiar with it, plus it always sounds brighter to me, but I want to try your recommendations of the different mics.

I like Jason's stuff and I have used his templates, but his patches sound like s**t with my gear, really terrible and thin. It's great when he demo's them but for some reason I can't get any of it to work my end. 

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1 hour ago, Paulzx said:

 

You're right, I use the SM57 because I'm most familiar with it, plus it always sounds brighter to me, but I want to try your recommendations of the different mics.

I like Jason's stuff and I have used his templates, but his patches sound like s**t with my gear, really terrible and thin. It's great when he demo's them but for some reason I can't get any of it to work my end. 


This is what gives me concern.  As I first mentioned I was concerned about the speaker situation because none of Jason's stuff ever sounds terrible and thin on my gear which is a Yamaha DXR12 for my live system and Yamaha HS7's in my studio.  So I can't help but think there's something going on in your output situation.  If your Alto's are up off the ground that's one fix, but now I'm concerned with what kind of signal you might be sending to the Alto as well as exactly how old the Alto is.  Normally you would feed a monitor speaker with a 1/4" output at line level which I'd check first.  It would be nice to know what the exact model is on the Alto.  There are some much older models that use simple crossovers and have tone knobs rather than using DSP with no tone knobs for setting the response of the speaker.

Also bear in mind with powered live speakers you want to make sure you give yourself some physical space between you and the speaker as well as listen to them from different off-axis positions.  I have my DXR 12 at about chest height and normally give myself about 6 feet of distance and listen off-axis as well as with my back turned to make sure the sound is consistent before making adjustments to my patch.  Those are basically PA speakers and no one in their right mind stands right in front of a PA speaker expecting it to sound great.

 

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3 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

 

The IR is in his posting, too. And ever since 2.9x the IR slot position is irrelevant (besides, there's just one IR in the patch, so even with an older FW version it wouldn't be too tough to assign things).

It wouldn't do any good with a different IR as I'm trying to hear what he's hearing.

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1 hour ago, Paulzx said:

You're right, I use the SM57 because I'm most familiar with it, plus it always sounds brighter to me, but I want to try your recommendations of the different mics.

I like Jason's stuff and I have used his templates, but his patches sound like s**t with my gear, really terrible and thin. It's great when he demo's them but for some reason I can't get any of it to work my end. 

 

I've bought the British pack from Jason and on the Alto 308 it doesn't sound great. To my ears a bit to harsh, but using a bit of EQ helps.

 

As to the Alto, did you perhaps push the contour button? If you do it will push the highs and the lows which will be even be further emphasised once you increase the volume.

 

I found your presets very bright (in particular I did not like the IR) so you may need to lower the presence and treble on the amp further than what I did. But the presets I sent you sound ok over here (using a relatively cheap Harley Benton fusion pro with 2 humbuckers). And indeed making a blend with a ribbon mic will give you a much smoother sounding tone. But, if you prefer the SM57... it should work.

 

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2 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

It wouldn't do any good with a different IR as I'm trying to hear what he's hearing.

 

Why would you listen through a different IR? Slap the one he posted anywhere into a free slot and bob's your uncle. No need to reassign anything. Unless you haven't updated to 2.9x yet.

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3 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:


This is what gives me concern.  As I first mentioned I was concerned about the speaker situation because none of Jason's stuff ever sounds terrible and thin on my gear which is a Yamaha DXR12 for my live system and Yamaha HS7's in my studio.  So I can't help but think there's something going on in your output situation.  If your Alto's are up off the ground that's one fix, but now I'm concerned with what kind of signal you might be sending to the Alto as well as exactly how old the Alto is.  Normally you would feed a monitor speaker with a 1/4" output at line level which I'd check first.  It would be nice to know what the exact model is on the Alto.  There are some much older models that use simple crossovers and have tone knobs rather than using DSP with no tone knobs for setting the response of the speaker.

Also bear in mind with powered live speakers you want to make sure you give yourself some physical space between you and the speaker as well as listen to them from different off-axis positions.  I have my DXR 12 at about chest height and normally give myself about 6 feet of distance and listen off-axis as well as with my back turned to make sure the sound is consistent before making adjustments to my patch.  Those are basically PA speakers and no one in their right mind stands right in front of a PA speaker expecting it to sound great.

 

 

Yep Alto's are on their own stands, top of speakers are about 6' height from ground. I stand at least 2 metres away - not because i think they've got coronavirus, but because the Helix is on the floor in front of them so you can't really get right up near to them anyway!

 

I've attached a photo of the back of the left one, as you can see they are TS210 model, which as i say, was recommended on this forum at the time i was looking for some. I also have a DT50 212 combo amp (for sale) as I don't use it with my Helix, tried it once, sounded terrible!

20200526_191656.jpg

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1 hour ago, SaschaFranck said:

 

Why would you listen through a different IR? Slap the one he posted anywhere into a free slot and bob's your uncle. No need to reassign anything. Unless you haven't updated to 2.9x yet.

Ahhh...missed the IR he posted...

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26 minutes ago, Paulzx said:

I've attached a photo of the back of the left one, as you can see they are TS210 model, which as i say, was recommended on this forum at the time i was looking for some. I also have a DT50 212 combo amp (for sale) as I don't use it with my Helix, tried it once, sounded terrible!

 

 

Fwiw, I have the successor of that one, the TS310 - and well, don't want to put the 210s down or anything, but yes, they're noticeably better IMO. I compared them A/B (and also compared the 310s with the Yamaha DXRs and DBRs) and went with the 310. I could've bought the DXR as well (money wasn't important for that decision) but simply didn't need to because the 310 was sufficient.

Still, you should be able to at least get a pretty decent sound out of it. I recommend to fool around with the global EQ, though, from what I remember, the 210s tend to get boomy, even if placed on poles, so check out whether some additional low cut will help with tightening things.

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On 5/25/2020 at 6:01 PM, Hillman1312 said:

Played a bit with your presets; give this a try and let me know what you (or anyone else) think.

Arch test 1a.hlx 16.71 kB · 6 downloads Marshall test 1a.hlx 16.43 kB · 3 downloads

 

Mixed results! They sound decent but a bit thin on the sound, at least through my gear. I notice you're doing the high and low cuts on the IR's, 80hz & 8khz which does cure the boomy IR sound to be fair. When i play my versions back to back with yours, my archetype is definitely too middly or bright, but the tones sound a bit fatter. I think i'll keep yours and EQ them a bit because you definitely have the reverb and reflections sounding better on yours.

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23 hours ago, bypassvalve said:

On Arch: mic to 4 inches, high cut to 9.6k, reflections to 33%. 

 

On Engl: mic distance 6 inches, low cut 73Hz, reflections 29%

 

On Marsh: mic distance 4.5 inches, low cut off, reflections 28%. 

 

Any mids lost from mic position you can add back with a little post EQ, that's what they do at the board, but you want that mic position sound to scoop first, that's how you know it's in phase. 

 

Just tried this - Amazing! you've nailed the Archetype, that's the best i've heard that amp from my Helix, very tight bottom but you can still palm mute it and get some resonance and depth. The Engl is still a bit dark for me so might have to fiddle a bit on that. The Marshall is nice too, not fizzy.

 

I assumed on your post you meant to apply those to the cabs, and you just ignored the IR altogether?

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Just now, Paulzx said:

I assumed on your post you meant to apply those to the cabs, and you just ignored the IR altogether?

 

I didn't mess with the IR, no point fighting it. An IR is one fixed mic position from whenever they shot the IR, you're stuck with that image. With the virtual cab you can adjust mic position/type, that's natural EQ, the only EQ you should really need to do. If you get the mic position right, you don't need EQ at all. All EQ is is bandwidth concentrated phase shift, if you get the mic position right it's perfectly EQed and 100% in phase, lows are clear, highs are clear, mids are scooped and clear. With an IR, all you can do is filter off the top and bottom and add/cut EQ, but you're stuck with the one mic position from whoever shot the IR. If the mic position wasn't right, you're just doing surgery on a turd. I'm head over heels in love with the L6 cab, with just a couple inches mic movement, there are zero throw away sounds, no matter what drooling toddler dialed in the amp, you can tune it to perfection in just a few inches of mic movement. 

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2 minutes ago, bypassvalve said:

no matter what drooling toddler dialed in the amp

 

*not directed at op

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16 minutes ago, bypassvalve said:

 With an IR, all you can do is filter off the top and bottom and add/cut EQ, but you're stuck with the one mic position from whoever shot the IR. 

What do you think the stock cabs are doing? They're ultra-flat IRs with simulated mic positions at various settings, which is just a fancy way of adding EQ. Not that they don't/can't sound good, but they're not some magic algorithm. IME, especially for heavily distorted stuff, IRs are pretty much drag, drop, and play as long as you know the sound you're after. And so far, I haven't found a stock cab or IR that doesn't need at the very least a HPF to sit in a band mix. 

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