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Paulzx

Still struggling for authentic hard rock tone

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5 minutes ago, gunpointmetal said:

They're ultra-flat IRs with simulated mic positions at various settings, which is just a fancy way of adding EQ

 

Sure, just linear filtering, but being that they put the work in to measure mic and distance combinations for each cab, each combination reflects real world results, quickly. Maybe George Massenburg could do that with a parametric, I sure af can't. George M would go move the mic to a better spot. I love the old OH vector libraries for that, moving the mic bit by bit so you can go through and find the spot you're looking for. Not really such thing as a good sound, but when you're looking for the right sound, all the little in-betweens is where the right sound resides.

 

I'd also bet that there's quite a few IRs in play with the virtual cabs, Mikko said he used thousands to build his plugin, it sounds way too natural and works way too predictably to be just EQ adjustment as a cheap simulation. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, bypassvalve said:

 

Sure, just linear filtering, but being that they put the work in to measure mic and distance combinations for each cab, each combination reflects real world results, quickly. Maybe George Massenburg could do that with a parametric, I sure af can't. George M would go move the mic to a better spot. I love the old OH vector libraries for that, moving the mic bit by bit so you can go through and find the spot you're looking for. Not really such thing as a good sound, but when you're looking for the right sound, all the little in-betweens is where the right sound resides.

 

I'd also bet that there's quite a few IRs in play with the virtual cabs, Mikko said he used thousands to build his plugin, it sounds way too natural and works way too predictably to be just EQ adjustment as a cheap simulation. 

 

 

If the L6 cabs were that intensive there's no way they'd use less DSP than an IR block. I'm not expecting anyone from L6 to come in and give away the secret sauce, but I'm pretty sure you're not cycling through thousands of very slightly different IRs when you switch mics/positions. Thousands of micrometer-difference IRs are annoying as hell, and 99% there will  be EQ applied after the fact in a mix, no matter how perfect you get the base tone, unless everything else you're comparing against doesn't change. 

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15 hours ago, bypassvalve said:

 

I didn't mess with the IR, no point fighting it. An IR is one fixed mic position from whenever they shot the IR, you're stuck with that image. With the virtual cab you can adjust mic position/type, that's natural EQ, the only EQ you should really need to do. If you get the mic position right, you don't need EQ at all. All EQ is is bandwidth concentrated phase shift, if you get the mic position right it's perfectly EQed and 100% in phase, lows are clear, highs are clear, mids are scooped and clear. With an IR, all you can do is filter off the top and bottom and add/cut EQ, but you're stuck with the one mic position from whoever shot the IR. If the mic position wasn't right, you're just doing surgery on a turd. I'm head over heels in love with the L6 cab, with just a couple inches mic movement, there are zero throw away sounds, no matter what drooling toddler dialed in the amp, you can tune it to perfection in just a few inches of mic movement. 

 

You've done this before.. you're really Bob Rock aren't you? ;)

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17 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

 

Fwiw, I have the successor of that one, the TS310 - and well, don't want to put the 210s down or anything, but yes, they're noticeably better IMO. I compared them A/B (and also compared the 310s with the Yamaha DXRs and DBRs) and went with the 310. I could've bought the DXR as well (money wasn't important for that decision) but simply didn't need to because the 310 was sufficient.

Still, you should be able to at least get a pretty decent sound out of it. I recommend to fool around with the global EQ, though, from what I remember, the 210s tend to get boomy, even if placed on poles, so check out whether some additional low cut will help with tightening things.

 

You guys are making me paranoid now about these speakers! I've never used the Helix through anything else so it's hard for me to make a comparison, when you say the 310's are better, in what way? Is the sound drastically different enough to warrant changing over?

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2 minutes ago, Paulzx said:

 

You guys are making me paranoid now about these speakers! I've never used the Helix through anything else so it's hard for me to make a comparison, when you say the 310's are better, in what way? Is the sound drastically different enough to warrant changing over?


The only thing that's causing these responses is that you seem to have a LOT more problems than most people at getting the tone you want.  Most modern FRFR speakers may have a few slight differences, but by and large they perform just fine.  What alarmed me was you saying Jason Sadites presets didn't sound right to you.  It could very well simply be something that's causing you to have problems.  Maybe you should do a quick review of his latest video might give you some insight into what might be happening to you.
 

 

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21 minutes ago, Paulzx said:

You guys are making me paranoid now about these speakers! I've never used the Helix through anything else so it's hard for me to make a comparison, when you say the 310's are better, in what way? Is the sound drastically different enough to warrant changing over?

 

Well, they're probably not drastically different (it's been a while since I compared) but noticeably. Still doesn't render the 210s unusable. As said, I think the 210s are more likely to get a bit boomy and the high end might be somewhat pronounced, too.

What I'd do is to:

- Listen to some music you're familiar with through them, ideally using the Helix as an audio interface. Open the global EQ and see which frequencies might be somewhat offensive.

- Listen to the same stuff and your guitar sounds through decent headphones (in case you got such a pair) and compare to see what's different.

 

What are you using when listening to the YT guys that you seem to like the sound of? Run the Helix through the same system.

 

Anyhow, why not just give a try what I suggested? Record some DI guitar bits (using Helix USB path 7/8) and post them. Also post some sounds that you'd like to be going for as a reference.

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On 5/26/2020 at 1:33 PM, gunpointmetal said:

What do you think the stock cabs are doing? They're ultra-flat IRs with simulated mic positions at various settings, which is just a fancy way of adding EQ. Not that they don't/can't sound good, but they're not some magic algorithm. IME, especially for heavily distorted stuff, IRs are pretty much drag, drop, and play as long as you know the sound you're after. And so far, I haven't found a stock cab or IR that doesn't need at the very least a HPF to sit in a band mix. 

I don't use any high or low pass. Just found the right IR with the right mic and placement (an Ownhammer one). 

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On 5/27/2020 at 1:46 PM, SaschaFranck said:

 

Well, they're probably not drastically different (it's been a while since I compared) but noticeably. Still doesn't render the 210s unusable. As said, I think the 210s are more likely to get a bit boomy and the high end might be somewhat pronounced, too.

What I'd do is to:

- Listen to some music you're familiar with through them, ideally using the Helix as an audio interface. Open the global EQ and see which frequencies might be somewhat offensive.

- Listen to the same stuff and your guitar sounds through decent headphones (in case you got such a pair) and compare to see what's different.

 

What are you using when listening to the YT guys that you seem to like the sound of? Run the Helix through the same system.

 

Anyhow, why not just give a try what I suggested? Record some DI guitar bits (using Helix USB path 7/8) and post them. Also post some sounds that you'd like to be going for as a reference.

 

There are a few references, some album tones, some live ones. I listen to youtube clips through my yamaha 5.1 amp connected to the tv, but in stereo mode.

I'll try and upload some examples - how do you attach a youtube clip into these posts?

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Okay here's one excellent example with Richie Faulkner - not only is it mesmerising playing but that tone!

 

 

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Here's another, these are live ones obviously but still tones i'm trying to get close. This one is a live guitar only channel of Adrian Smith

 

 

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Just now, Paulzx said:

Here's another, these are live ones obviously but still tones i'm trying to get close. This one is a live guitar only channel of Adrian Smith

 

Ok. Now post a DI track of your guitar playing something along the lines - you can grab such a DI signal from USB 7/8.

That way, we could try to go for a little tone matching.

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On 5/28/2020 at 4:51 PM, SaschaFranck said:

 

Ok. Now post a DI track of your guitar playing something along the lines - you can grab such a DI signal from USB 7/8.

That way, we could try to go for a little tone matching.

 

I literally have no idea how to do that. Presumably you connect Helix to laptop then need some software to record?

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17 minutes ago, Paulzx said:

 

I literally have no idea how to do that. Presumably you connect Helix to laptop then need some software to record?

 

Yeah, precisely. You could simply use Audacity, which is a freeware audio editor also allowing you to record. USB outs 7/8 (hence appearing as USB inputs 7/8 in whatever recording software) always carry your dry guitar input signal, so you could just record some bits from USB 7 (mono is sufficient). You could do all that while playing through your favourite preset, USB 7/8 will still be a bone dry guitar signal.

It's really not complicated at all, once you have the Helix driver installed (which you will have anyway as you're using HX Edit).

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