output block Don't use output block level per snapshot

[Indianrock2020]

I ran into some reverb or delay artifacts when switching snapshots.  ( half way through the 20 second clip below ).
On another forum the advice was that it's ok to  use the  output block to set overall patch volume, but do not use that on a snapshot basis ( instead, change snapshot levels prior to any time-based effects ).  Changing levels per snapshot in the output block has been a standard practice for me, especially if amp channel gain couldn't get it done.
I don't recall if delay or reverb tails were on but at the moment of the artifact I had a fair amount of delay and Glitz reverb running, going from a slightly higher gain passage to a milder passage when snapshots were switched.

It was also suggested that delay feedback/mix and reverb decay should not get adjusted snapshot to snapshot.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1svJDxpEzmKiRnRH7jaW-5NII4-KB9K93/view?usp=sharing

[themetallikid]

I agree with the concept of the delay/reverb feedback/mix not be adjusted as that would force the Helix to reprocess the input signal I'd think and cause a glitch in the audible sound.

 

However, I use the output block at -4db for all my presets and then change from -4 up to 0db for my lead boosts.  I only use Delay on my lead sounds, and only use a touch of reverb on my rhythm presets.  In those contexts I dont 'hear' anything in a live situation.  I'm sure its there, and if I was a heavier user of those effects as the base of my tone/sound building Id guess this could be plausible,  but for my straight up rock n roll approach to this, i dont hear enough to stop using it.

[Indianrock2020]

Yes I never had this issue before at lower wet effects levels.  Due to Covid, we're recording our parts at home and not playing live so I've found you need or can get away with considerably more reverb.  That's when the glitch raised it's ugly head.  It's also possible I changed the reverb decay parameter on a snapshot basis, not realizing the risk..

[DunedinDragon]

Quite honestly I got away from using the output block a few years ago because it kind of made me nervous and depend solely on amp model channel volume adjustments.  That's always worked flawlessly for me, but it was more about my concern that the output block really exists outside of the modeled signal chain and interfaces directly with the AD/DA conversion, so I wasn't sure if it would work the way I expected it to all the time, whereas the channel volume always would.  I don't know if that's actually true, but it made sense to me.

[Indianrock2020]

Some people like to use the output block on a preset basis so that all of their presets in a given set or performance are volume balanced rather than doing what I've been doing and changing the volume there on a snapshot basis.... the only problem with the amp channel gain exclusively is that in some of the early fender models there just isn't enough gain available with that control in certain circumstances

[gregbarry]

Hope it is ok to resurrect this thread.

I am trying to adjust volume level per snapshot. Every time I set a level in a snapshot and save it, the other snapshots also are changed to the same level. This happens whether it's the output block, cab block, delay pedal. I can't adjust level per snapshot like the manual says. Is that a glitch? I have Helix LT with latest firmware.

[phil_m]

On 1/4/2023 at 7:56 PM, gregbarry said:

Hope it is ok to resurrect this thread.

I am trying to adjust volume level per snapshot. Every time I set a level in a snapshot and save it, the other snapshots also are changed to the same level. This happens whether it's the output block, cab block, delay pedal. I can't adjust level per snapshot like the manual says. Is that a glitch? I have Helix LT with latest firmware.

You need to assign parameters you want to change per snapshot to the Snapshots controller. Right click on them in HX Edit and select Snapshots.

[theElevators]

Use the output level as the last resort.  If you can't achieve the high enough volume you need otherwise, then crank the output level.. It does introduce noises in certain cases when you switch between presets/snapshots where the output level is different. 

 

Instead, there are lots of workarounds to achieve the same:

Add a fixed volume pedal, boost, or EQ, or simply adjust the output level of some of your blocks.  For example, in my lead sound, I have an EQ.  The EQ has an output level.  So I can dial in the output level of my EQ sound so that it balances perfectly.  You can even have an EQ block that does not actually equalize, just controls the volume level in your chain.

 

From experience, do not mess with the amp settings between your snapshots -- that also introduces pops/crackles and boings. 

 

 

[codamedia]

Gain blocks are easy on resources and are transparent. I keep one near the front of my chain to match input levels, and one after the amp block to fine tune output levels. If I need a cut or boost in a snapshot, I'll apply it on one of those depending on the need. 

 

That type of option isn't practical on a Stomp or HX effects with limited blocks... but there is no shortage of blocks on the big units to squeeze them in. 

 

Works for me, might not be the solution for others :) 

[HonestOpinion]

I believe that the artifacts the OP was hearing were in fact due to some parameter being changed between snapshots, quite possibly on his delay; not the output block level. It is perfectly ok to change the level between snapshots using the output block. Several of my presets use this approach. As a matter of fact, it is the best place to do it if you want to ensure that you do not change the level going to, for example, an effect block downstream. Level changes made earlier in your signal chain can change the response of an effect downstream and hence your tone, not just the amplitude of your overall signal. So, for the most transparent volume changes, barring any tonal changes due to the actual increase/decrease in volume (Fletcher-Munson), an output block is probably the best way to go.

 

Also, as @codamedia alluded to, it is a great way to save on using an extra block. With the Helix I often use a volume block and also a gain block as he does. I place the volume block right before delay and reverb so that I don't cut off my trails if I depress my expression pedal fully heel-down (0%).