Helix lt Sound Problems

[JustTsuki]

Hello everyone,

Recently I picked up a Helix lt to replace my old Boss ME-25. I tried a couple of processors in the same price bucket, with a pair of studio headphones the guys at the store gave me and a pair of Marshall headphones. Afterwards, at home I'd use it without a cab block, running the output in an old valve amp. Unfortunatelly, the amp died and I'm unable to get it fixed, due to the current situation.

This is where my problems with the sound start. I picked up a Scarlett 2i2 and I'm running that into a 5.1 system I use for my PC audio. Helix patches have stayed the same, just added some cab blocks to match the amp models I am using. Everything hotter than a mild crunch sounds like a badly dialed Metalzone. There is a lot of noise and a mid-high fuzz that is predominent in all tones. I've changed cables, tried going out through XLR vs 1/4, tried adding an EQ at the end of the patch to cut out the bad frequencies. At first I was convinced that I'm just bad at making a tone, so I followed a couple of videos on how to get a nice tone, but copying the settings off of those produced the same muddy mess as when I was doing it on my own. So I went back to have a look at the factory patches and, sure enough, all of them sound like crap too.

Is it the speakers that are killing the sound, or am I missing some setting in either the Helix or the Scarlett?

[silverhead]

Have you tried removing the Scarlett and using the Helix as your audio interface? You’ll need to connect your speakers to the Helix outputs or use headphones.

[JustTsuki]

I haven't done that yet, will try as soon as I can and get back to you with my results.

[cruisinon2]

1 hour ago, JustTsuki said:

I haven't done that yet, will try as soon as I can and get back to you with my results.

 

The interface is not your problem, and it's highly unlikely that there's anything wrong with your Helix. You are experiencing the same growing pains that we all did when transitioning from "real" amps and cabinets.

 

Using cab and mic sims into any sort of FRFR speaker or headphones, and running through a real amp and cabinet with no cab simulation are two entirely different worlds. Modelers are not guitar amps...setting all the tone controls at noon and letting it rip isn't gonna work. Successfully dialing in tones that you like requires you to think like a recording engineer, not a guitar player... because what you're emulating is exactly what you'd have in a recording studio: a mic-ed amp in another room, heard through studio monitors in the control room.

 

The solution is learning what EQ you need to apply to get the results you want... and what works for me won't necessarily work for you. The guitar, pickups, chosen means of amplification, the acoustic environment, and especially the volume at which you're listening all contribute to your sound... the same patch played at a comfy living room  volume will sound VASTLY different when cranked to window rattling levels. This cannot be stated enough...it's universal, and there's no escaping it. You must create your patches at the volume at which you intend to use them.

 

YouTube tutorials are a good place to start (I recommend Jason Sadites' channel), as are discussions on forums like this one (there are enough of these threads here to keep you reading for the next 2 years), but they're only useful for understanding the process of creating your sounds. Copying someone else's individual settings verbatim guarantees nothing but more frustration, because in most cases you will NOT get the same result that you're hearing in the video... they're are simply too many other variables beyond what's going on inside Helix. Ultimately you have to experiment yourself to find your own "secret sauce". There's no shortcut... mic choice is especially critical. You'll find that you'll get night and day differences just from choosing another mic model, pwithout touching so much as one other parameter.

[codamedia]

IMO, there are a few things at play here. I doubt the scarlet is the problem... I always run my LT into an interface for the computer. 

• You setup your tones for use with an amp.. and the speaker within an amp. That will be an "amp in the room" sound. Now you are adding cab models and listening through a computer speaker environment..... this is a "mic'ed up amp" through small speakers.Those are two very different monitoring situations. 
• Cab choice, mic choice and mic placement will take a lot of experimenting. That will cover the majority of your EQ problems, without getting destructive with EQ's later in the path.
• All Helix mic positions are CENTER cone... a very bright tone. You can pull the mic back, but you can't move it toward the edge like many engineers would do to tame the highs.
• To get around this, insert the TILT EQ after the cabinet... dial the TILT back to dark 50 or dark 60 and leave the other settings alone. This is a great starting point for moving the mic about half way toward the edge of the speaker.... it will tame a lot of the fizz and abrasive highs. I find it adds a subtle depth to the tone.

Good luck... it takes time to go from an "amp in the room" to a "mice'd up amp" :) 

 

EDIT TO ADD: Looks like @cruisinon2 posted something very similar while I was writing. 

[JustTsuki]

Thanks for the replies guys.

12 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

(I recommend Jason Sadites' channel)

That's exactly where I started, trying to follow his 'Create a Great Tone' series. I found a lot of the differences and lack of understanding on my part in the video where he was exploring putting effects before the amp block. Around 8:30 he has just an amp block and a distortion pedal that he moved before or after. I know that I'm not going to get the same results, be it because of the different guitar, youtube compression, or all the other things that might effect how I hear his tone and mine through the same speakers. But with having the pedal in pre or post I got the same sound, similar to his when the pedal was in post (actually that is a good representation of the tone I am getting with everything). This is a part of what first got me thinking that maybe my inexperience wasn't the whole problem.

14 minutes ago, codamedia said:

Cab choice, mic choice and mic placement will take a lot of experimenting. That will cover the majority of your EQ problems, without getting destructive with EQ's later in the path.

I haven't ever tried to mic up a real amp and see how that goes, though I know some stuff in theory (mostly from the Andertons channel and how they mic up). I'll give the Tilt EQ a try and I'll probably try to start off with a single cab (I was trying to do the blended split path with 2 different mics on each side).

[DunedinDragon]

1 hour ago, JustTsuki said:

I haven't ever tried to mic up a real amp and see how that goes, though I know some stuff in theory (mostly from the Andertons channel and how they mic up). I'll give the Tilt EQ a try and I'll probably try to start off with a single cab (I was trying to do the blended split path with 2 different mics on each side).

 

THIS is an important piece of the information you can gain from watching Jason Sadites videos.  You'll notice that he almost always uses a dual cab setup (that's a dual cab single block not two cab blocks).  The reason being that most of what you hear in modern recordings as well as on stage concert performances are typically dual mic'd cabs.  He kind of glosses over this in most of his later videos but I'm sure he has one out that goes into detail about his approach.  He generally uses a dual cab block using one dynamic mic and one ribbon mic, which when blended together gives you a much fuller and realistic overall tone to start with.  The key is to pay attention to how he tweaks the parameters that deal with mic placement as well as parameters such as early reflections to bring out the tone.  I personally use IRs simply because they're easier to apply, but I've duplicated his approach with the Helix stock cabs and they come out very much the same as an IR configured with the same mics and placements.  This is the one area where most new users are deficient in their knowledge and can make the biggest difference before you start monkeying around with EQ.

Until you are able to get some serious output capabilities, you're likely to be significantly limited in getting the tone you want.  The Helix is only half of the solution.  Your output setup is the other half.

[datacommando]

11 hours ago, JustTsuki said:

I'm running that into a 5.1 system I use for my PC audio.

I just had a look at the link you gave to the “DVD home theatre system” that you say you are using to monitor your audio from Helix LT.

It seems to me that there are a lot of inbuilt EQ settings on the system. I certainly hope that you are bypassing all this stuff. I think you need some real monitors or FRFR speakers to hear what’s happening.

Equalizer settings 

• Action 
• Classic 
• Concert 
• Digital 
• Drama 
• Jazz 
• Rock 
• Sci-Fi

[JustTsuki]

1 hour ago, datacommando said:

I just had a look at the link you gave to the “DVD home theatre system” that you say you are using to monitor your audio from Helix LT.

It seems to me that there are a lot of inbuilt EQ settings on the system. I certainly hope that you are bypassing all this stuff. I think you need some real monitors or FRFR speakers to hear what’s happening.

Unfortunatelly, there is no way to bypass them. And on top of that, just from PC audio I've noticed there is either a gate or some type of compression, as small bursts of sound get cut off. It feels a bit like an autoswell or something.

I did spend 4-5 hours tinkering with trying to get a tone for a specific song. Nailed the cleans with just a nice selection of cabs and mics, distortion snapshots are still a work in progress, but I've definitelly made some progress.

I guess I'll look into getting a pair of studio speakers to run off of the scarlet for the guitar and the sound system can go back in the audio output on the PC for everything else.

[cruisinon2]

15 minutes ago, JustTsuki said:

I guess I'll look into getting a pair of studio speakers to run off of the scarlet for the guitar and the sound system can go back in the audio output on the PC for everything else.

 

This is really your only viable option... any patch(es) that you create on that playback system will sound completely different through any other FRFR speakers out there in the world...it'll make taking your Helix anywhere else (gigs, rehearsals, or just jamming with a friend through a different setup) more or less impossible without significant editing to every patch.

 

A decent pair of studio monitors can be had for as little as $200/ pair,  and will solve many of the issues you're having.

 

[datacommando]

50 minutes ago, JustTsuki said:

I guess I'll look into getting a pair of studio speakers to run off of the scarlet for the guitar and the sound system can go back in the audio output on the PC for everything else.

That’s the way to go - studio monitors (even inexpensive ones) will be a world away from all that Dolby pumping, thumping cinema speaker system.

Good move - have fun!

 

 

[JustTsuki]

Spent a couple of days playing around with different things, thanks @codamedia for suggesting the Tilt EQ, really helps shape the sound. Once I was happy with a tone I tried changing the EQ mode on the sound system and immediatelly everything went to crap. I guess I am spending a lot in fighting against that EQ constantly, so the next step is absolutelly getting a nice pair of speakers.

I've started looking around, so far I think I am leaning towards the Yamaha Studio&PA HS5. From reviews people seem pretty happy with them and the price is great. I see they've got  a high shelf/cut and a low cut, but those can be bypassed. Additionally, I migth make use of the XLRs and run the Helix directly into the speakers, skipping the Scarlett, as I've noticed that my signal is quite noisy with the Helix just turned on (my guess would be messy power, since all my PC stuff run from the same outlet).

Thanks again for all your help and suggestions.

[datacommando]

25 minutes ago, JustTsuki said:

my guess would be messy power, since all my PC stuff run from the same outlet

Hi,

As you have already invested in the Helix LT, and now are going for some decent monitors, it may be wise to also clean up your electrical supply by adding a power conditioner to your shopping list.