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pengipete

Signal flow logic

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Just a general observation that's not Pod Go specific - hope that's okay on this forum.

Was messing around with my lovely new Pod Go and it struck me that all of the multifx I've used have a fundamental flaw with the design/logic of their virtual layout.   Ignoring the ability to move effects around on these classy Line 6 gizmos, the multifx I've used all have the same basic path for effects (and it shows on all of the factory presets on this Pod Go)....

 

Guitar input> patch level> Gain effects > Amp > Cab > Time-based Effects > Output.   (there may be a send/return option around the amp/cab stage).

 

Thing is - that model is actually saying that we can add time-based effects AFTER the sound has left the speaker???   Surely, the correct path should (must?) always have the power amp and speaker cab at the very end of the chain - it makes no sense in terms of a real-world rig to do otherwise.  The pre-amp and send-return loops should go where the amp/cab combo is by default.

 

Is there some specific reason why multifx designers all seem to be using this same illogical (and inaccurate) layout - with effects magically being applied after the power-amp & speaker.   And is there any good reason for us not to move the power amp and cabs to the end of the patch on our own devices?

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I think you're missing perhaps the most important difference between a modeler and a physical amp/cab. A modeler is designed to create the sound of a MIC'd cab as heard (and further processed) in the control room of a recording studio. In that context it is perfectly normal to apply time-based FX in the control room (mixing console) post-amp/cab.

 

A modeler does not attempt to recreate the sound of an amp in the room, where the restriction you point out does apply.

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You're absolutely right - I'm obviously thinking just in terms of playing and not considering it as a recording studio - I'd do any "post cab" processing in my DAW as part of the total sound of a track.     I'd messed around and it seemed insane that I can put the cabinet before the power-amp (and that does affect the output sound of the patch) - that's what triggered me thinking about this.   Moving the amp & cab to the last position in the flow didn't seem to alter the sound at all - so having the effects after the cab is still jarring for me.    It just seems to make a lot more sense to me - especially when visualising the flow of processing when using 4CM - to move the power amp and cab to the end.  I guess I'm just old :)

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1 hour ago, pengipete said:

Thing is - that model is actually saying that we can add time-based effects AFTER the sound has left the speaker???   Surely, the correct path should (must?) always have the power amp and speaker cab at the very end of the chain - it makes no sense in terms of a real-world rig to do otherwise.

 

Who cares about real-world rig?!  If you're dreaming that you're in your harem in your floating castle, surrounded by beautiful women, riches, delicious food, etc., would you rather wake up frustrated that castles do not fly and that therefore you should not have a floating harem castle, or stay a little longer and enjoy the marvels of your dream world?

 

Yeah, you're not limited with the real world constrains of an unpractical guitar rig.  Instead, you're given previously impossible options & settings, it's a wonderful thing, appreciate it!  So sure, you want to put your distortion after your cab, or your amp after your speaker cab, go ahead!  The world is yours!  If you want to use it it's there, if not, don't use it!  It's 100% up to you!  Not being able to do all those things when it's technically possible would have been a HUGE shame and limitation!

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19 minutes ago, grdGo33 said:

 

 Not being able to do all those things when it's technically possible would have been a HUGE shame and limitation!

 

Not advocating that anyone shouldn't be able to do as they please - just saying that it seemed odd to me that the default on all these devices places effects after the speaker.   As silverhead said, that makes sense if you look at it as a production tool rather than a replacement for a dozen stomp pedals plus a virtual amp.

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13 minutes ago, silverhead said:

 

Excellent - thanks.   It's basically saying what I was assuming - that the "amp" and "cab" are really just more effects, to be used or not as required - basically just fancy EQ presets.

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It's not a flaw but a flexible choice. If you want all your fx in front of the amp, you can. And when it comes to fx chain order, even in the real world whilst there is a general thinking of what's likely to be a good logical order, there are no hard and fast rules and players go with what sounds good to their ears.  Even an EQ and Volume will sound different in front of or after your amp and fx, depending on whether e.g. you want the volume to control gain too or just volume, or the EQ to work clean or add gain. 

 

Pod Go also means you can even put fx between the amp and cab e.g. spring reverb which most agree sounds best there.   

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In the real world, it’s not at all rare to add time-based effects to recorded guitar signals after the fact. It might be more common to record guitars quite dry, actually. This is a short video, but I always point to this video as a good example of someone dealing with raw guitar signal.

 

 

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The most awesome thing about modern units is they allow you to go either way. You can put them all before the amp in a traditional pedalboard setup or put them all after the speaker in a traditional studio setup. Or you can break all the rules and make whack sounds.

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