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meramhall

Lo cut & Hi cut filters in HX Stomp

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DC here!

 

Anybody know how steep,  the high cut & low cut controls,  in the amp and cag sims are?

6/12/18/24  dB/octave?

 

Cheers: Dixiechicken!

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May I kindly step in, Dixiechicken, and ride along with your question?

For I have one myself, same playfield as yours, though on a side instance:

  • how about the Mic input Lo-Cut filter's slope?
    Is it 6, 12, 18 or 24 dB/octave?

I realize that, as a device conceived for guitar and bass players, every possible effort went towards the most fluid user interface, and I appreciate how that turned out... well, stellar, no less.

The lack of any specification in terms of audio signal and audio path, though, even something as minimal as one page of the Owner/User Manual dedicated to it, I have very little appreciation for it. You know, in order to learn its exact size and weight before buying it, I had  to look it up on Thomann.de webshop, for guessing whether it may fit the place I had available for it on my audio table, that's not exactly in line with my idea of an engineering specs sheet – or lack thereof. Just like the missing audio data you and I are asking about, here and now.

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DC here!

 

By all means ride along -lols.

 

I have a few of the Waveart plugins to my daw.

The Trackplug have the option of tailoring your eq i various vays.

Parametric with deamless variotion of the Q-value and gain.

Shelving low & hi cut & brick wall etc.

 

That would be useful info to have as regards the HX Stomp.

 

Cheers: Dixiechicken!

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I'm failing to re-surface the source but the cab hi/low pass filters are more gentle than those in the EQ blocks. I want to say the cabs are maybe 12dB while the EQ blocks are 24dB. My memory is hazy but the cabs' filters are not as steep as the EQs'. I personally find this desirable as the roll-off of highs on most guitar recordings is a more gentle slope but it means the cab cuts will maybe be a bit more natural but you'll need to cut deeper while the EQ cuts will be more immediate but can be kept less severe. I hope that makes sense.

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DC here!

 

Yes I've looked at some videos at You Tube.

Check this link below as an example:

That supports your statement that the EQ-blocks roll off curves - are steeper than the cab-blocks roll off curves.

Cheers:  Dixiechicken!

 

 

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Fortunately for me I set my high and low cuts based on what I hear rather than what I see....

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To add to the OP's question, does anyone know how to adjust the "hi cut" frequency to below 1khz?

 

I just bought this pedal and would like to set this to around 180hz for the purpose of making a two piece band guitar patch (think royal blood, hockey dad etc).

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@mudmun there's no secret way to go lower than the lowest setting. You may need an external EQ pedal if none of the built in EQs go low enough for your use case :(

 

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On 7/6/2020 at 5:03 AM, rbbrnck said:

May I kindly step in, Dixiechicken, and ride along with your question?

For I have one myself, same playfield as yours, though on a side instance:

  • how about the Mic input Lo-Cut filter's slope?
    Is it 6, 12, 18 or 24 dB/octave?

I realize that, as a device conceived for guitar and bass players, every possible effort went towards the most fluid user interface, and I appreciate how that turned out... well, stellar, no less.

The lack of any specification in terms of audio signal and audio path, though, even something as minimal as one page of the Owner/User Manual dedicated to it, I have very little appreciation for it. You know, in order to learn its exact size and weight before buying it, I had  to look it up on Thomann.de webshop, for guessing whether it may fit the place I had available for it on my audio table, that's not exactly in line with my idea of an engineering specs sheet – or lack thereof. Just like the missing audio data you and I are asking about, here and now.


The low and high cuts in the cab and IR blocks are 6dB per octave. In the EQ blocks, they’re 12dB per octave.

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FWIW I did some experimenting by using a sine sweep going from 10 - 15 KHz as a feed into HX Native using Ableton Live as DAW. At the end of the signal chain I put an analyser so I could see the response by the model as a function of the frequency. I know, this is not the same as playing chords with all the overtones and all that, but it gives you a good idea on how the model responds as a function of frequency.

 

The signal chain was very simple : Amp (2204) into an Ownhammer IR and into a Hi/Lo cut EQ block.

When testing the EQ block the high cut on the IR block was off and vice versa when I was playing around with the high cut on the IR block the EQ was bypassed.

Similar to what Mr. Sadites is saying in his video I found that an Hi/Lo Cut EQ block with a high cut at 12 KhZ would give nearly the same response as a high cut on the IR block at around 5.8 - 6.0 Khz. The difference in response was very very small but to be honest I did not expect it would require this big of a difference in cutoff frequency. I always wondered why the guy from the Helix channel puts his high cut so low, but actually this experiment shows that it really is not that low at all.

 

Apart from the experiment above this setup is pretty interesting as it also allows you to get a good idea on the frequency response of different mics, different cabs or basically any model or combination of models in the Helix. For a nerd like me this helps in understanding why certain models sound the way they do and it is in fact helping me in dialing tones.

 

For those who would like to try as well, here's where I downloaded the sweep file: https://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_highdefinitionaudio.php

The volume is pretty high as an input to you helix/ native so be careful and correct for that. Also, turn down the volume on your speakers/ headphones.... these are sine waves, very different from music :-))

 

 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Hillman1312 said:

...

Similar to what Mr. Sadites is saying in his video I found that an Hi/Lo Cut EQ block with a high cut at 12 KhZ would give nearly the same response as a high cut on the IR block at around 5.8 - 6.0 Khz. The difference in response was very very small but to be honest I did not expect it would require this big of a difference in cutoff frequency. I always wondered why the guy from the Helix channel puts his high cut so low, but actually this experiment actually shows that it is actually not that low at all.

 

...

 

 

 

 

 

This is a very interesting result. Can you explain why a high cut at 5.8-6.0khz would be roughly the same on an IR block as a Hi/Lo cut on an EQ block at 12khz?  The 6db versus 12db cut respectively should only account for the steepness of the slope of the cut. I don't understand why the two different cuts would be giving similar sonic results when cut in such radically different parts of the frequency spectrum. Seems like some other variable would be involved here such as the impact of cutting within the IR instead of after/before it.  The difference in the slope of the EQs alone would not seem to be sufficient to account for this result.

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DC here!

 

That's because the difference in the slope in the cut curves.

 

Setting a cut off 12 dB/octave slope at 5KHz would mean the the volume is down by 12 dB at 10 KHz. 

Setting a cut off 12 dB/octave slope at 5KHz would mean the the volume is down by 24 dB at 20 KHz. 

 

Setting a cut off 24 dB/octave slope  at 10 KH would mean that the volume is down  by 24 dB at  20 KHz

( a much steeper slope )

 

The sound you percieve from your instryment is dependent on:

1) the total overal volume - ( the Fletcher Munson curves )

2) the combination of the root frequency + the overtones and their relative volumes

    (the second third fourth fifth etc etc order harmonics)

 

Cheers:  Dixiechicken!

 

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On 7/9/2020 at 5:28 PM, meramhall said:

DC here!

 

That's because the difference in the slope in the cut curves.

 

Setting a cut off 12 dB/octave slope at 5KHz would mean the the volume is down by 12 dB at 10 KHz. 

Setting a cut off 12 dB/octave slope at 5KHz would mean the the volume is down by 24 dB at 20 KHz. 

 

Setting a cut off 24 dB/octave slope  at 10 KH would mean that the volume is down  by 24 dB at  20 KHz

( a much steeper slope )

 

The sound you percieve from your instryment is dependent on:

1) the total overal volume - ( the Fletcher Munson curves )

2) the combination of the root frequency + the overtones and their relative volumes

    (the second third fourth fifth etc etc order harmonics)

 

Cheers:  Dixiechicken!

 

 

Just trying to make the point that where the cut is started(e.g. 5khz vs. 12khz) should make a fairly audible difference no matter which slope you select. Hillman1312 ran his test using a "sine wave sweep from 10-15khz".  I guess I would expect, as his results showed, to hear and see less of difference in the output if I compared the two cuts(6khz/-6db and and 12khz/-12db) if I started my sine wave sweep test at 10khz as he did. I would expect to see a more dramatic difference if I started sweeping from 5khz.

 

To belabor the point, I get what you're saying but there is a whole lot of space in between a cut at 5.8-6khz and 12khz as @Hilman1312 was referring to in the Jason Sadites video(he rocks!). That means that yes, maybe the cut(-24db in your example)  looks similar by the time you hit 20khz, or even as you go above 10khz.  You would think however there would be a fairly audible difference between a cut that starts at 5khz and one that starts at 12khz, regardless of slope or whether the db level of the two different cuts converge as they approach the top end of the frequency range at 20khz.  At say around 10-12khz and beyond, which slope you used shouldn't make as much difference in tone as there is less guitar to be heard up there.

 

 

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DC here!

 

Yes you have a good point there!

The shape of the slope - aka the steepness - plays a very important role of course.

The 6 dB/Octave slope will attenuate all the frequences at a much slower rate than a 12 dB 18 dB & 24 dB

 

By varying cut off points and slopes- you might expect - at some point - that the amplitudes

and frequencis & overlaying harmonics to be roughly the same.

( probably very roughly is my feeling )

 

And thus you'd perceive the sound to be the same - YMMV

Soundperception is a very personal thing of course. :)

 

Cheers:  Dixiechicken!

 

PS

Thanks for the info btw on the cag IR slope versus the EQ block slops.

DS

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Here's some screenshots from Ableton with added lines for easier comparison.

Same amp, same IR only changes are the frequency cuts (IR block or EQ block). Bottom graph is a reference based on just the amp + IR without any cuts.

 

When using the EQ block the signal strength starts to drop (albeit very slightly) already in the 3-4 kHz region where the IR cuts start to drop a bit after that.

Above 9-10 kHz the IR cuts are slightly steeper.

 

Overall, very subtle differences and again .... this is based on a frequency sweep and not on actual playing.

 

 

3_graphs.thumb.png.edfa51bb9823060962c62498f3d4e714.png

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DC here!

 

Thanks for the input interesting results & food for thoughts - lols

Hava a great day!

 

Cheers:  Dixiechicken!

 

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i appreciate everyone's feedback in reply to the questions raised here.

i only regret that Yamaha / Line6 do not rate Helix Rack as a worthy piece of pro audio gear despite their claims - or do not rate it worthy enough of a proper technical specifications' sheet.

 

of course, there's @DunedinDragon chiming here, too, to prove them right in their line of thought. we're among guitarists, he or she seems to be saying, so what's the use of knowing what's going on? rock on, bro, bring down the house, you don't need to know, you better learn how to feel things... seems to be his/her thought on the matter, along which i also detect a slight twist of mockery, added in for effect.

 

i take decisions on what i'm listening, and what my brain decodes of aural stimuli alone - to the point that the only feature i really miss on my Helix Rack is a display blackout timer or switch, lacking which i've shaped a sheet of black cardboard to cling onto it, in order to mute its screen – for mixing, and mastering, i use a blindfold over my eyes whenever i need to give, or use, a reliable word of judgement, or an assessment of what shall be different than what i'm listening to.

 

still, beside guitar nerds and black arts artifacts, in any sound design (and i urge you to please look this up if the terms sound arcane), your sound project / audio chain / source material can only fit within the existing capacity and headroom through all of your audio components - hence the slope of existing highpass filter in the Mic Input, too – and not only IRs or EQs around presets – means a lot, as such tool's used to create a feedback path onto a choice of existing loudspeakers and microphones.

 

audio professionals can and do take decisions based on audio facts, before they can and do get busy at designing sound, hence creating what pleases their ears, too - but based on knowledge lying behind, rather than wise cracks and know-it-all attitude. even when they engage in playing guitar, or bass, in their workflow, too.

 

mixing consoles for professional applications come provided with a signal path / level normograph, depicting all paths and levels across inputs, outputs, insert points, matrix, auxes and subgroups... as do quality audio interfaces, too.

which i rate Helix Rack to be, to an extent - it's just the lack of this documentation from its Manufacturer to push me into thinking the "professional" adjective attached to the text on its user manual is misplaced, or used for mere marketing hype. 

 

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DC here!

 

[CAVEAT]

mixing consoles for professional applications come provided with a signal path / level normograph,

depicting all paths and levels across inputs, outputs, insert points, matrix, auxes and subgroups... as do quality audio interfaces, too.

which i rate Helix Rack to be, to an extent - it's just the lack of this documentation from its Manufacturer to push me into thinking

the "professional" adjective attached to the text on its user manual is misplaced, or used for mere marketing hype. 

[END CAVEAT]

 

That can certainly be true in -  I suspect a large part :) -

there is seldom a manufacturer "badmouths" their own products.

 

Peronally I do like a thorough technical spec sheet.

Then I will have a yardstick to measure that against my own tastes & hearing.

(just my two cents)

 

Cheers: Dixiechicken!

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