SaschaFranck Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 So, I played my first daylight gigs last week (played a bunch of open airs last year already, but always only when it was getting darker already). No direct sunlight, even cloudy conditions. Yet, I was shocked about the LED brightness - or, uhm, darkness for the matter. I have absolutely no idea what they thought when designing this thing, but it's clearly not made for outside operation or any kind of brighter stage lightning. Obviously, I noticed the latter on several indoor gigs already, but it was at least sort of working. Outside it's not, at least not sufficiently. And fwiw, the main display is every bit as bad, the screibble strips coming in a close second. Now, I do usually know what I stepped on last, my switches are mostly layed out the same on most patches as well, but then, sometimes you just need some quick information. So, what is everybody doing on outside gigs, especially when dealing with direct sunlight (which I can only imagine to be horrible)? What kind of sun-shield constructions did you build yourself? Fwiw, as far as Line 6 is concerned, they could at least allow the scribble strips to become completely inverted (just what's happening with the snapshot numbers) once it's selected. That would help a lot already. The brighter label (when active) is barely visible under daylight, too. And as far as future hardware revisions go, they should just use decent stuff. The singer on last weeks gigs used a TC Vocalive 3 and the LEDs were clearly visible from the other side of the stage whereas I almost couldn't see the status of mine anymore when stepping aside by just a meter or 2. Has never been an issue with any other devices I used in the past, either. Whatever, in case someone has some great sun-shielding solutions, I'd be happy to learn about them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codamedia Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 5 hours ago, SaschaFranck said: Whatever, in case someone has some great sun-shielding solutions, I'd be happy to learn about them! Me too.... 5 hours ago, SaschaFranck said: Has never been an issue with any other devices I used in the past, either. We differ there... for 35+ years I have battled on stages when sunlight is a factor. Aside from some pedals with "super bright LED's" (which completely blind you on dark stages) I could never see the status of my effects in sunlight. Same experience with all the different multi effects I've owned.... such as Roland/Boss, Digitech, Zoom, and earlier Line 6 products. Sunlight has always been my nemesis. 5 hours ago, SaschaFranck said: And as far as future hardware revisions go, they should just use decent stuff. Maybe implementation can be improved such as your suggestion to have the ability to invert the scribble strips... or maybe a brightness control can be added, or more contrast options. But TBH, this reads like a passive aggressive "cheap shot" in the middle of an otherwise helpful post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaschaFranck Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 32 minutes ago, codamedia said: But TBH, this reads like a passive aggressive "cheap shot" in the middle of an otherwise helpful post. Well, not really, it's merely kinda like stating the obvious. And well, while I'm not exactly becoming agressive (that'd takes a whole lot more...), I'm quite dissapointed to discover quite some areas where the Helix hardware is pretty much sub par. In addition, it becomes quite clear to me that the unit hasn't been tested under certain conditions - which is quite a shame, to be honest. In a nutshell, there's some really annoying issues which now can't be adressed anymore (the usless joystick, the XLR outs, the mic preamp, the headphone volume pot, the USB jack middle protection, etc.), and it would've only cost a few bucks more plus some real life condition testing to make the unit just excellent on all accounts - but instead it always causes me to be extra cautious or take other actions (such as now looking for a sun-shielding thingy). I think a certain amount of dissapointment is obvious. Anyway, sure, I have been running into similar problems in the past as well - but there's always been a decent solution. For instance, I have replaced the LEDs of some pedals in favour of brighter ones. And in case they were too bright on darker stages, I had little translucent stickers that I would simply put on. With the Helix there's no such option. And as said, TC's Vocalive is doing an excellent job in comparison (and it's defenitely not too bright in darker environments, perhaps it comes with an auto-dim sensor, but I doubt it). If it was after me, I would as well only have single color LEDs (as with the TC) but brighter ones. Whatever, if they could at least get the scrible strips to change to inverted when active, that'd help quite a bit already. And I'm still curious what people might be using under such lightning conditions. My Helix will make it into a case permanently in some weeks I guess, so I'd like to have something that I could install kinda permanently. Ideally, it would at least sort of shield it from stage lights, too, so any "lid" would have to "overlap" quite a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_m Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 I've not had an issue seeing the scribble strips outdoors in the sun, with the exception that if you have sunglasses with polarized lenses, they'll become invisible. But, yeah, the main screen isn't really visible in direct sun. But as mentioned above, this is pretty par for the course, unless you use a different type of screen. Even with simpler pedals, the LEDs aren't visible at all in the direct sun. My Strymon TimeLine, for example, I can tell if the LEDs are on or off or read the little LCD screen in the direct sun. 1 hour ago, SaschaFranck said: (the usless joystick, the XLR outs, the mic preamp, the headphone volume pot, the USB jack middle protection, etc. What are the issues with all of these? How is the joystick useless? Mine works fine after five years still... It sounds like you're simply listing stuff for which some people have had hardware failures and making it sound like a universal problem. You sell 70,000+ units of anything, some problems are going to show up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Mine works fine, but I'm pi$$ed anyway!!!!!! ;) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone_Poor_Boy Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 I'm sure you're aware of this but for $115 I'm pretty sure most could fashion one together pretty easily. https://www.gearbyceba.com/line6-family-usa/helix-sun-shield-splash-guards-usa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone_Poor_Boy Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 3 hours ago, codamedia said: Aside from some pedals with "super bright LED's" I've got a 'Crazy Horse' pedal that I absolutely love but that blue LED is insanely bright. I ended up taping over it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaschaFranck Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 2 hours ago, phil_m said: I've not had an issue seeing the scribble strips outdoors in the sun, with the exception that if you have sunglasses with polarized lenses, they'll become invisible. But, yeah, the main screen isn't really visible in direct sun. But as mentioned above, this is pretty par for the course, unless you use a different type of screen. Even with simpler pedals, the LEDs aren't visible at all in the direct sun. My Strymon TimeLine, for example, I can tell if the LEDs are on or off or read the little LCD screen in the direct sun. I don't care *that* much about the screen (even if it would likely be better in case it wasn't colored - the GT-1000 screen apparently offers easier visibility), but the LEDs could do a lot better. Helix here (picture even taken from a decent angle), look at switch 8, which is on: Vocalive here (picture taken from way further away at a less decent angle): A difference like night and day (ha - I said "day" as in daylight, I'm such a funny bloke...) Quote What are the issues with all of these? How is the joystick useless? Mine works fine after five years still... It sounds like you're simply listing stuff for which some people have had hardware failures and making it sound like a universal problem. You sell 70,000+ units of anything, some problems are going to show up. First off: No, I'm not just collecting things from the net. I have said this here already, I know 7 Helix owners personally (myself included) and 4 units have seen a repair shop (mine included). That's not a good percentage at all. Further, as you've asked, the joystick is a design failure already. You need a joystick to move in other directions than just left/right, such as diagonally. The Helix joystick doesn't support that. For all other purposes, single arrow buttons work just as fine and are way less prone to wear out. The Helix joystick however allows for 7 directions to be moved in (left, right, up, down, knob press, knob turn right, knob turn left) which is the best receipe to losen something or make it wear out quickly. And to also losen soldering joints, which is one of the most often mentioned repairments (happened to one of the 7 folks I know as well). Other things are just cheap, such as the XLR outputs which can't cope with phantom power. Even my 100 bucks G3 doesn't have an issue with that. Same with the mic preamp (there's a thread right here where you can see it disassembled). Another thing that broke on one of the Helixes from a dude I know. All he did was switching phantom power on with a mic connected - *poof*. And yes, that's a pretty wellknown issue, too. My unit had a broken tap tempo LED, another wellknown issue. And the 4th unit of the ones I know in person had the headphone knob broken because it was getting too tight. Yet another known issue (and yet again, there's a thread right here). Fwiw, I absolutely like my Helix and hope to be able to use it for a long time to come, but that doesn't mean I fail to see its weak points. And there's several. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaschaFranck Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 39 minutes ago, Lone_Poor_Boy said: I'm sure you're aware of this but for $115 I'm pretty sure most could fashion one together pretty easily. https://www.gearbyceba.com/line6-family-usa/helix-sun-shield-splash-guards-usa Thanks, I think I even remember that. Additional shipping would make that completely inacceptable (it already is too expensive in my book as is). And yeah, I could just slap something like that together quite easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_m Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 5 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said: I don't care *that* much about the screen (even if it would likely be better in case it wasn't colored - the GT-1000 screen apparently offers easier visibility), but the LEDs could do a lot better. Helix here (picture even taken from a decent angle), look at switch 8, which is on: Vocalive here (picture taken from way further away at a less decent angle): A difference like night and day (ha - I said "day" as in daylight, I'm such a funny bloke...) First off: No, I'm not just collecting things from the net. I have said this here already, I know 7 Helix owners personally (myself included) and 4 units have seen a repair shop (mine included). That's not a good percentage at all. Further, as you've asked, the joystick is a design failure already. You need a joystick to move in other directions than just left/right, such as diagonally. The Helix joystick doesn't support that. For all other purposes, single arrow buttons work just as fine and are way less prone to wear out. The Helix joystick however allows for 7 directions to be moved in (left, right, up, down, knob press, knob turn right, knob turn left) which is the best receipe to losen something or make it wear out quickly. And to also losen soldering joints, which is one of the most often mentioned repairments (happened to one of the 7 folks I know as well). Other things are just cheap, such as the XLR outputs which can't cope with phantom power. Even my 100 bucks G3 doesn't have an issue with that. Same with the mic preamp (there's a thread right here where you can see it disassembled). Another thing that broke on one of the Helixes from a dude I know. All he did was switching phantom power on with a mic connected - *poof*. And yes, that's a pretty wellknown issue, too. My unit had a broken tap tempo LED, another wellknown issue. And the 4th unit of the ones I know in person had the headphone knob broken because it was getting too tight. Yet another known issue (and yet again, there's a thread right here). Fwiw, I absolutely like my Helix and hope to be able to use it for a long time to come, but that doesn't mean I fail to see its weak points. And there's several. All I'll say is never fly anywhere with any of those friends, as they all seem pretty unlucky... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 1 hour ago, SaschaFranck said: First off: No, I'm not just collecting things from the net. I have said this here already, I know 7 Helix owners personally (myself included) and 4 units have seen a repair shop (mine included). That's not a good percentage at all. If we're gonna use math, let's use math. Nothing on earth can be meaningfully evaluated with a sample size of 7. While your figures do indeed represent a significant percentage of your buddies, they also represent a miniscule percentage of the total number of units in the wild. You could poll 7 random users on this forum and just as easily come up with 7 perfectly happy gents who's units have never needed repair. Armed only with that info, would you then conclude that the Helix repair rate is zero? Of course not... ain't nothing that good. At the end of the day, anecdotal evidence is exactly that. Sample size is everything. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaschaFranck Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 2 hours ago, cruisinon2 said: If we're gonna use math, let's use math. Nothing on earth can be meaningfully evaluated with a sample size of 7. While your figures do indeed represent a significant percentage of your buddies, they also represent a miniscule percentage of the total number of units in the wild. You could poll 7 random users on this forum and just as easily come up with 7 perfectly happy gents who's units have never needed repair. Armed only with that info, would you then conclude that the Helix repair rate is zero? Of course not... ain't nothing that good. At the end of the day, anecdotal evidence is exactly that. Sample size is everything. I'm perfectly aware of all that. Yet, the XLR out is of bad quality on each and every Helix. Same goes for the LED rings. And the joystick isn't a great design decision, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestOpinion Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 9 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said: I'm perfectly aware of all that. Yet, the XLR out is of bad quality on each and every Helix. Same goes for the LED rings. And the joystick isn't a great design decision, either. What's the issue with the XLR outs? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaschaFranck Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 29 minutes ago, HonestOpinion said: What's the issue with the XLR outs? They don't work well with phantom power, resulting in a degraded/distorted signal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codamedia Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 38 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said: ... the XLR out is of bad quality on each and every Helix. There was a design oversight that causes "possible" degradation of sound when phantom power is applied. That doesn't mean the XLR out is "cheap", it just means you can't run phantom power on a Helix line. You know that, so it really is a simple solution! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruisinon2 Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 51 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said: I'm perfectly aware of all that. Yet you use it as "evidence" of substandard design. Can't have it both ways. Quote Yet, the XLR out is of bad quality on each and every Helix. How so? Quote Same goes for the LED rings. Doing battle with sunlight is a loosing proposition, in nearly every way imaginable. It'll bleach your patio furniture and give you melanoma. And given that gear like this is gonna be used indoors the overwhelming majority of the time, what do you expect? If this is your yardstick, then you're gonna be disappointed with most displays on earth. Quote And the joystick isn't a great design decision, either. Everything mechanical eventually fails... and if you swing from the chandalier, it's gonna fail sooner than it would otherwise. If you don't beat the $hit out of the joystick, then it'll last a good long time. Assuming things are indestructible, or "should be" indestructible, is a great way to break stuff. I hardly ever touch the damn thing, simply because I don't want to bend down to the floor every time I want to edit something. At a gig it's unavoidable of course, but otherwise I'm on HX Edit. It's far more convenient, and it spares the hardware unnecessary wear and tear. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaschaFranck Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 5 minutes ago, codamedia said: There was a design oversight that causes "possible" degradation of sound when phantom power is applied. That doesn't mean the XLR out is "cheap", it just means you can't run phantom power on a Helix line. You know that, so it really is a simple solution! Well, it's bad hardware design, absolutely no way around it. As said, even a cheap Zoom G3 doesn't run into problems. And the solution means I have to carry an extra device with me all the time. Defenitely not what should be required. Let alone Line 6 doesn't tell you (at least not officially). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaschaFranck Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said: Doing battle with sunlight is a loosing proposition, in nearly every way imaginable. It'll bleach your patio furniture and give you melanoma. And given that gear like this is gonna be used indoors the overwhelming majority of the time, what do you expect? If this is your yardstick, then you're gonna be disappointed with most displays on earth. I don't know about the devices you've used before, but none of the ones I owned were as bad as the Helix. See my pics above, the Vocalive is just doing a great job and it's far away from blinding you indoors. Quote Everything mechanical eventually fails... and if you swing from the chandalier, it's gonna fail sooner than it would otherwise. If you don't beat the $hit out of the joystick, then it'll last a good long time. Assuming things are indestructible, or "should be" indestructible, is a great way to break stuff. I hardly ever touch the damn thing, simply because I don't want to bend down to the floor every time I want to edit something. At a gig it's unavoidable of course, but otherwise I'm on HX Edit. It's far more convenient, and it spares the hardware unnecessary wear and tear. I'm never using the joystick at home, either. But I still need to use it at rehearsals and live. And well, it's a difference between an item to fail at one point in time (which most will do) and an item being designed in a way that it'll fail earlier as what would be necessary. A joystick such as the Helix one is a way more fragile thing than 4 arrow keys and a dual function dial. Such things should only be used in case the functionality would otherwise be compromised. But that's not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codamedia Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 27 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said: ... but none of the ones I owned were as bad as the Helix. Seeing that you claim you own a cheap Zoom G3, then make this claim directly above regarding use in the sun. I AM CALLING YOUR BLUFF! I own both as well... please don't even try to go there! 34 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said: Well, it's bad hardware design, absolutely no way around it. As said, even a cheap Zoom G3 doesn't run into problems. Yeah it is... but that doesn't make it cheap or poor quality. IMO, It's a lot easier to adapt to known issues that it is to complain about them indefinitely :) 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datacommando Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 1 hour ago, SaschaFranck said: Well, it's bad hardware design, Oh, Alexander, So, today it’s bad hardware design to add to the list of complaints, along with Real Time Latency and HX Native. Line 6 should have hired you as a consultant, because you seem to be aware of everything that is just not good enough. Please, do everyone a favour and go on your 3 weeks holiday and let other users have some respite from your constant pi$$ing and moaning! But that won’t happen, because now you will feel the need to reply to this, won’t you Alexander? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkelley Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Well, clearly you should sell your Helix Time to dump that lemon, where every potential future-issue or rare problem anyone has ever mentioned on this forum has happened to you and your friends, and move to (axe/headrush/kemper/zoom) and find out what a (difficult-UI/hard-to-dial-tones-plus-frustrating-touchscreen-ui/severely-limited-amp-controls-plus-limited-fx-and-routing/limited-processing-plus-old-models-plus-limited-routing-and-switching) feels like..... Maybe that's what you're looking for. EVERY of these excellent modelling products has limitations. Every one of them. EVERY one of them can be used to create great music, if you know the product and learn how to push, or work around, it's limitations. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkelley Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Oh, by the way, I do have a suggestion for people trying to see the displays on units in the sun. I used to tour and when I did I had a road case for my pedals that has these metal angled side pieces that blocked the sun, and feet and beer, from hitting my board. It was great - probably some DIY thing could be fashioned like that, as long as it's heavy enough to not fly away when playing outdoors... (like, don't use cardboard). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestOpinion Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 6 hours ago, SaschaFranck said: They don't work well with phantom power, resulting in a degraded/distorted signal. 6 hours ago, codamedia said: There was a design oversight that causes "possible" degradation of sound when phantom power is applied. That doesn't mean the XLR out is "cheap", it just means you can't run phantom power on a Helix line. You know that, so it really is a simple solution! 6 hours ago, cruisinon2 said: Yet you use it as "evidence" of substandard design. Can't have it both ways. How so? Doing battle with sunlight is a loosing proposition, in nearly every way imaginable. It'll bleach your patio furniture and give you melanoma. And given that gear like this is gonna be used indoors the overwhelming majority of the time, what do you expect? If this is your yardstick, then you're gonna be disappointed with most displays on earth. Everything mechanical eventually fails... and if you swing from the chandalier, it's gonna fail sooner than it would otherwise. If you don't beat the $hit out of the joystick, then it'll last a good long time. Assuming things are indestructible, or "should be" indestructible, is a great way to break stuff. I hardly ever touch the damn thing, simply because I don't want to bend down to the floor every time I want to edit something. At a gig it's unavoidable of course, but otherwise I'm on HX Edit. It's far more convenient, and it spares the hardware unnecessary wear and tear. Looks like my question already got responded to with great alacrity. Ok, I was already aware of the phantom power issue and that is a legitimate gripe with the Helix. @Sascha your post did make it sound as if the XLR jacks were low quality. The way they were implemented in regards to phantom power is very problematic and should definitely be fixed, at least in the subsequent generations of hardware. That is, as others have already pointed out, not the same as implying that they are "bad quality" jacks. While several of your criticisms of some of the hardware and design choices made for the Helix are perfectly legitimate there is also a wealth of high quality components and design in the box as well. it seems like this might be a good time to trot out this fairly exhaustive early review(see link below) of the Helix from a reviewer who actually took it apart and did a deep dive. You may feel somewhat reassured with his well founded conclusion that the Helix is incredibly well designed with some top notch components. At least in many important respects. It does have room to improve but starts with a very solid foundation. I will stipulate one thing however and I realize it is strictly anecdotal and based on my own experiences with a fairly broad number of Line 6 products. I generally come to Line 6 because of their incredibly innovative technology with its intuitive interfaces that offer a wealth of options but are still unbelievably easy to use. It appears(to me) that they do need to work on reliability and design when it comes to some of the hardware they use and connect with on their devices. I have personally owned several Line 6 devices that have had what are essentially primarily not computer/electronic but instead connectivity/control and mechanical problems and failures. Either way they provide incredible tools for making music. The Helix still remains the first modeler, after many years of trying just about every one on the market, that was able to woo me away from stomp pedals and tube amps and cause me to actually switch over to playing gigs entirely with a modeler. For that alone they deserve major props. Before the Helix every modeler I tried either ended up at best on my pedalboard being strictly used for effects only or got relegated to the dustbin in favor of my analog stomps and a tube amp. https://tonymckenzie.com/line6-helix-effects-unit-floor-pedal-inside-and-out-review.htm 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaschaFranck Posted July 14, 2020 Author Share Posted July 14, 2020 6 hours ago, codamedia said: Seeing that you claim you own a cheap Zoom G3, then make this claim directly above regarding use in the sun. I AM CALLING YOUR BLUFF! I own both as well... please don't even try to go there! Oh, we could happily go there. Besides, owning the Zoom doesn't mean it's also a modeler I used under sunlight conditions... Quote Yeah it is... but that doesn't make it cheap or poor quality. Yes, it does. Every bit. An XLR out crapping out once there's phantom power running into it is poor quality, absolutely no way around it. 6 hours ago, datacommando said: Line 6 should have hired you as a consultant, because you seem to be aware of everything that is just not good enough. They should perhaps have done that in fact. But unfortunately they apparently hired hooray-sayers such as you (or the rest of the Line 6 defense squad). 6 hours ago, donkelley said: EVERY of these excellent modelling products has limitations. Every one of them. EVERY one of them can be used to create great music, if you know the product and learn how to push, or work around, it's limitations. I am absolutely aware of that. That doesn't mean I shouldn't criticize things. 6 hours ago, donkelley said: Oh, by the way, I do have a suggestion for people trying to see the displays on units in the sun. I used to tour and when I did I had a road case for my pedals that has these metal angled side pieces that blocked the sun, and feet and beer, from hitting my board. It was great - probably some DIY thing could be fashioned like that, as long as it's heavy enough to not fly away when playing outdoors... (like, don't use cardboard). Yeah, been thinking about something like that already. So far, I'm likely to build a new case somewhen (post-Corona, doesn't make sense right now) and will consider to use the lid as a sort of shield. But it'll look quite bulky, so I'm still searching for better solutions. 6 hours ago, HonestOpinion said: Looks like my question already got responded to with great alacrity. Ok, I was already aware of the phantom power issue and that is a legitimate gripe with the Helix. @Sascha your post did make it sound as if the XLR jacks were low quality. The way they were implemented in regards to phantom power is very problematic and should definitely be fixed, at least in the subsequent generations of hardware. That is, as others have already pointed out, not the same as implying that they are "bad quality" jacks. The jacks themselves are fine - but I was explicitely saying "XLR outs". And at least for me, these contain both the jack and the "functionalitly". The latter being severely crippled. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestOpinion Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 52 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said: ... The jacks themselves are fine - but I was explicitely saying "XLR outs". And at least for me, these contain both the jack and the "functionalitly". The latter being severely crippled. Fair enough. I understand you were referring specifically to the XLR out jacks(or connectors if you prefer) and functionality is obviously critically important to their operation. However when you say "bad quality" most people's thoughts instantly leap to inferior manufacturing and/or substandard materials, not necessarily problems with functionality, or more to the point, the way that Line 6 designed them to be connected internally. That is why your initial comment elicited the comments and questions above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaschaFranck Posted July 14, 2020 Author Share Posted July 14, 2020 58 minutes ago, HonestOpinion said: Fair enough. I understand you were referring specifically to the XLR out jacks(or connectors if you prefer) and functionality is obviously critically important to their operation. However when you say "bad quality" most people's thoughts instantly leap to inferior manufacturing and/or substandard materials, not necessarily problems with functionality, or more to the point, the way that Line 6 designed them to be connected internally. That is why your initial comment elicited the comments and questions above. Well, thing is, it *has* to do with using substandard materials. Not on the jacks themselves but on the XLR circuits. And unfortunately, that's as well true for some other components. And no, I am defenitely not expecting military grade quality from a complexed product coming in at roughly 1.5k bucks (it'd possibly cost 5 times as much otherwise). But I am expecting some things to work properly or - if you will - "averagely well". This, quite clearly, isn't the case with some Helix components. And yet I'm almost butchered for even mentioning it by quite some people (not meaning you, fwiw). It also doesn't matter whether there's workarounds. There should be no workaround required for something as stupidly simple as using an XLR output, regardless whether there's phantom power supplied or not. And the workaround for the worst latencies of all modelers (as datacommando was so friendly to take that discussion into this thread...) shouldn't have to be purchasing another interface. Again, I don't expect world class performance. But at that price tag, I do at least expect average performance - which the Helix driver for the audio interface portion clearly isn't delivering. Anyway, I meant this topic to be about solutions to the LED dilemma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datacommando Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 3 hours ago, SaschaFranck said: They should perhaps have done that in fact. But unfortunately they apparently hired hooray-sayers such as you (or the rest of the Line 6 defense squad). Oh, really Alexander, you are a very silly child. I don’t know where you got the idea that I’m employed by Line 6 as a “hooray-sayer”? But, DILLIGAF! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestOpinion Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 2 hours ago, SaschaFranck said: ... Anyway, I meant this topic to be about solutions to the LED dilemma. There are various images of homemade sun sheilds. floating around the internet. You can use cardboard, wood, plastic, etc.. You can also buy an automotive sun shield off Amazon although it might look a bit sloppy on stage and might be less effective at certain sun angles. Part of the challenge with any of these solutions is what to do when the sun is overhead and behind you. Some times might require using a sun shield of some sort and also reorienting the board(more perpendicular to the stage). I've been thinking of how to address this for a while having been caught flat-footed on outdoor gigs before and having to make due with whatever cases were available to throw some shade.. One of the fastest and cheapest DIY projects I can think of would be to take one of those cheap clear or colored plastic storage bins and turn it upside down over the Helix. You know, those bins you might use to carry cables and other loose stuff in. They come in a variety of sizes with varying heights. Cut out a good size square in the front of it for foot access and as much of the top as you need to see the switches and screen. Make sure to drill extra ventilation holes here and there(in the plastic bin, not the Helix :-) if necessary to keep the device from overheating. Spray-paint the outside white for maximum heat reflection or whatever color/design or band logo you prefer. Flat colors would probably help cut down on reflections. I guess you could cover it with colored tape or even bumper stickers if you prefer not to paint. Or just start with a dark colored bin. Seems like it would be inexpensive, relatively quick and easy to build, light and highly customizable. The biggest pain would probably be cutting the plastic and getting the spray paint to adhere "semi"-permanently to the plastic. Maybe rough up the plastic with some sandpaper before painting. Now that I'm talking about it I'm inspired to give it a try myself. Might even make a good beer deflector for indoor gigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datacommando Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 2 hours ago, SaschaFranck said: Well, thing is, it *has* to do with using substandard materials. Not on the jacks themselves but on the XLR circuits. And unfortunately, that's as well true for some other components. I really do have to say this, even though I am not a Line 6 employee. I would seriously urge caution on your part. Making statements, such as the one that I have quoted above, appear to be legally - “skating on thin ice”. Unless you can back up these comments, I would imagine this may be borderline libellous. Nuff said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaschaFranck Posted July 14, 2020 Author Share Posted July 14, 2020 10 minutes ago, datacommando said: I really do have to say this, even though I am not a Line 6 employee. I would seriously urge caution on your part. Making statements, such as the one that I have quoted above, appear to be legally - “skating on thin ice”. Unless you can back up these comments, I would imagine this may be borderline libellous. Weren't you the one talking about "childish"? You should check your posts... An XLR output not being able to deal with phantom power properly is substandard. Absolutely no way around that. Arguing against it is just comical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaschaFranck Posted July 14, 2020 Author Share Posted July 14, 2020 34 minutes ago, HonestOpinion said: There are various images of homemade sunscreens floating around the internet. You can use cardboard, wood, plastic, etc.. You can also buy an automotive sun shield off Amazon although it might look a bit sloppy on stage and might be less effective at certain sun angles. Part of the challenge with any of these solutions is what to do when the sun is overhead and behind you. Some times might require using a sun shield of some sort and also reorienting the board(more perpendicular to the stage). I've been thinking about abusing something like the top of these old-fashioned music stands and slap some nylon stuff around it, the good thing being that you can fold these things up by default already, the downside being that most of them aren't wide enough and it also wouldn't protect much from top- or side-lights. But I might just give that a testrun and see how much it helps. Fwiw, the main issue I noticed was that it's not so much direct sunlight (which I usually can avoid) but diffuse light. The only way to successfully deal with that would be a kind of shield not leaving much else but the switches uncovered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_m Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 19 hours ago, SaschaFranck said: Well, it's bad hardware design, absolutely no way around it. As said, even a cheap Zoom G3 doesn't run into problems. And the solution means I have to carry an extra device with me all the time. Defenitely not what should be required. Let alone Line 6 doesn't tell you (at least not officially). The whole phantom power thing with the XLR outs is because of anti-pop circuitry, not because of the quality of the jacks. Phantom power won’t damage anything. The signal will just be attenuated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 19 hours ago, SaschaFranck said: Well, it's bad hardware design, absolutely no way around it. As said, even a cheap Zoom G3 doesn't run into problems. I "never" run 48 volts anywhere near my Helix in's or out's, but that's just me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkelley Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 12 hours ago, SaschaFranck said: The jacks themselves are fine - but I was explicitely saying "XLR outs". And at least for me, these contain both the jack and the "functionalitly". The latter being severely crippled. But... they are NOT severely crippled. They work perfectly in their designed use. Again - please show me a live sound engineer who runs 48v phantom power on all of the xlr cables attached to devices not owned by himself or his company. It's a dumb thing for a sound engineer to do, and should not enter into this discussion as a valid criticism of a product that should not receive 48v on it's xlr outputs. It is not a condensor mic or a phantom-powered DI (both of which are rare in live sound). It is the equivalent of an SM58, of which there are a gazillion in live sound use, and they connect it identically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkelley Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 11 hours ago, SaschaFranck said: Well, thing is, it *has* to do with using substandard materials. Not on the jacks themselves but on the XLR circuits. And unfortunately, that's as well true for some other components. They are NOT substandard. Look at the design schematic. It's a very clever design ... but not one that should exist around phantom power... which, again, this should not receive. Yes I think it should be a defeatable circuit, the one that line6 added which is causing you so much stress... so those of you who forget to turn off 48v phantom on your mixers don't suffer from any degredation of your tone until you realize the cause of the problem, which is often as easy to fix as hitting a switch on the board. But it is not a quality issue - it is an EXTRA FEATURE that line6 added to improve performance in literally all other situations besides having 48v mistakenly supplied to it. You really need to choose your words more carefully - quality implies cheapness. It actually costs Line6 more to do the design they did, and they did it to improve the product, not because it was a cheap part or to cheap out on design. Do we all agree with their decision? Nope - but that does not imply or suggest a quality issue. It is, literally, a design choice by the engineers, who (for anyone who works as an engineer will understand), would have been presented with a problem to solve and solved it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone_Poor_Boy Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 19 hours ago, donkelley said: I used to tour and when I did I had a road case for my pedals that has these metal angled side pieces that blocked the sun, and feet and beer, from hitting my board. It was great - probably some DIY thing could be fashioned like that, as long as it's heavy enough to not fly away when playing outdoors... (like, don't use cardboard). Hmmmm... what about modifying an old, used Coleman stove? Gut it, and put foam padding on the bottom to lift the Helix up some? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkelley Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 1 minute ago, Lone_Poor_Boy said: Hmmmm... what about modifying an old, used Coleman stove? Gut it, and put foam padding on the bottom to lift the Helix up some? OMG I love that! I looks really similar to the product I used, but of course mine looked like metal with black surfaces. And.... your version would be fire proof! Global warming and all that... this might become relevant ;-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaschaFranck Posted July 14, 2020 Author Share Posted July 14, 2020 1 hour ago, phil_m said: The whole phantom power thing with the XLR outs is because of anti-pop circuitry, not because of the quality of the jacks. Phantom power won’t damage anything. The signal will just be attenuated. No, the signal will as well be degraded, you can check it out for yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaschaFranck Posted July 14, 2020 Author Share Posted July 14, 2020 50 minutes ago, spikey said: I "never" run 48 volts anywhere near my Helix in's or out's, but that's just me. It's not about what I will do, it's about what the guy running the console will do. I have been running into this situation twice so far: Small mixer, sound done from stage. Those small mixers usually only allow for global phantom power on/off. And once there's some mic requiring an 48V feed, it'll be on, so you're out of luck with the Helix XLR outs. Fortunately, I have been aware of the issue beforehand and brought a phantom power blocker, but I rather wouldn't have to do that - and the Helix is the only device I ever owned requiring such things. It's almost an oxymoron to have a nice balanced (and independent!) onboard XLR out just to see it crap out once there's a phantom power feed. I'd rather be off with two independent 1/4" outs. In fact, as my phantom power blocker started to act up for unknown reasons, this is what I'm doing now, sending the 1/4 to FOH via a DI box while feeding my monitor (or IEM mixer) with the XLR out. Still requires an additional piece of kit for no good reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestOpinion Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 28 minutes ago, Lone_Poor_Boy said: Hmmmm... what about modifying an old, used Coleman stove? Gut it, and put foam padding on the bottom to lift the Helix up some? Man that brings back some great camping memories! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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