jmlakar Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 NEWBIE ALERT Purchasing a Helix and I already own a Quilter interblock 45w. Wondering the best sound option for live gigs. Currently I go POHD500x - 4 channel method with quilter interblock 45w into non powered 2x12 cabinet and then also from quilter interblcok house/soundboard to PAs . I like this setup, but a pain to tear down and setup constantly. Also, wondering if Helix technology is more advanced where i don't have to do this method anymore. I also want to make sure there isn't a better to maximize my equipment. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd2rk Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 You're already "maximizing" your equipment. If you wrap your cables into a color coded snake it's not that big a deal at setup/teardown time. You could eliminate cables by taking the 1/4" out straight to the Quilter and take an XLR from Helix to FOH. Of course, your Helix presets have to be designed (each and every one) for that, the advantage being that you can use any IR you want for FOH, vs being stuck with the Quilter cab sims. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmlakar Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share Posted July 16, 2020 8 minutes ago, rd2rk said: You're already "maximizing" your equipment. If you wrap your cables into a color coded snake it's not that big a deal at setup/teardown time. You could eliminate cables by taking the 1/4" out straight to the Quilter and take an XLR from Helix to FOH. Of course, your Helix presets have to be designed (each and every one) for that, the advantage being that you can use any IR you want for FOH, vs being stuck with the Quilter cab sims. ok. Makes some sense, but couple clarifications. What do you mean by designing presets? I assume you mean I cannot have amp simulators in Helix because I am using Quilter for the amp? What is "IR" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd2rk Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 2 hours ago, jmlakar said: ok. Makes some sense, but couple clarifications. What do you mean by designing presets? I assume you mean I cannot have amp simulators in Helix because I am using Quilter for the amp? What is "IR" ? Right now you're plugging your guitar directly in to the Quilter (or through FX first), using the Quilter preamp and power amp. If you use the 4 cable method with the Helix FX Loop and the Quilter's FX Loop, you can use the Quilter's Preamp and/or Helix Amps, switching between them (bypassing the Quilter Preamp section) at will, and placing effects both before the Quilter preamp (or Helix amp) and between the Quilter preamp (or Helix amp) and Quilter power amp.. The Quilter Power Amp is (as I understand it) basically a clean Class D amp. It should sound just fine with the Helix amps. You can use either Helix preamps or full amps. The full amps have the pre/power amp interaction baked in and, IMO, sound and feel better than the preamps alone. YMMV. Some people use the Helix preamps like an "AIAB" in front of their guitar amps. LOTS of possibilities. No rules, and sounds more complicated than it is. Helix comes with templates to show how it's done. People here are happy to help. The Quilter has a built in Cab Sim that you use for FOH, using your regular guitar cab for stage monitoring. You would design a Helix preset with the 1/4" output sending to the Quilter WITHOUT a cab/IR, and a separate (XLR) out WITH a cab/IR going to FOH. Same as you're doing with the Quilter, but taking the XLR from Helix and having a choice of Helix's built in cab sims or THOUSANDS (millions?) of IRs, vs the baked in cab sims of the Quilter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmlakar Posted August 25, 2020 Author Share Posted August 25, 2020 On 7/16/2020 at 6:07 PM, rd2rk said: Right now you're plugging your guitar directly in to the Quilter (or through FX first), using the Quilter preamp and power amp. If you use the 4 cable method with the Helix FX Loop and the Quilter's FX Loop, you can use the Quilter's Preamp and/or Helix Amps, switching between them (bypassing the Quilter Preamp section) at will, and placing effects both before the Quilter preamp (or Helix amp) and between the Quilter preamp (or Helix amp) and Quilter power amp.. The Quilter Power Amp is (as I understand it) basically a clean Class D amp. It should sound just fine with the Helix amps. You can use either Helix preamps or full amps. The full amps have the pre/power amp interaction baked in and, IMO, sound and feel better than the preamps alone. YMMV. Some people use the Helix preamps like an "AIAB" in front of their guitar amps. LOTS of possibilities. No rules, and sounds more complicated than it is. Helix comes with templates to show how it's done. People here are happy to help. The Quilter has a built in Cab Sim that you use for FOH, using your regular guitar cab for stage monitoring. You would design a Helix preset with the 1/4" output sending to the Quilter WITHOUT a cab/IR, and a separate (XLR) out WITH a cab/IR going to FOH. Same as you're doing with the Quilter, but taking the XLR from Helix and having a choice of Helix's built in cab sims or THOUSANDS (millions?) of IRs, vs the baked in cab sims of the Quilter. I love this, but a little confusing to me? Any chance you could screen shot the signal path would look like on the Helix to achieve this? I love the idea of using IR and simulated cabs/amps and essentially just using the Quilter for power for onstage monitoring/sound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd2rk Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 45 minutes ago, jmlakar said: I love the idea of using IR and simulated cabs/amps and essentially just using the Quilter for power for onstage monitoring/sound Just create a 1B or 2B split by inserting an IR or Cab Block at the end of the signal chain. Pull the IR/Cab block down to create the split. Pull the MERGE point down to fully split the paths. Assign 1A/2A Output to the 1/4" L/Mono Out (set to INSTRUMENT in Global Settings>Ins/Outs). Take that to the Quilter Input. The Quilter Output (set to FR) goes to your Stage Cab. Assign the 1B/2B Output to the XLR L/Mono Out (set to MIC or LINE per the FOH Sound Tech's preference). Take that to the board/FOH. A 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmlakar Posted August 25, 2020 Author Share Posted August 25, 2020 3 hours ago, rd2rk said: Just create a 1B or 2B split by inserting an IR or Cab Block at the end of the signal chain. Pull the IR/Cab block down to create the split. Pull the MERGE point down to fully split the paths. Assign 1A/2A Output to the 1/4" L/Mono Out (set to INSTRUMENT in Global Settings>Ins/Outs). Take that to the Quilter Input. The Quilter Output (set to FR) goes to your Stage Cab. Assign the 1B/2B Output to the XLR L/Mono Out (set to MIC or LINE per the FOH Sound Tech's preference). Take that to the board/FOH. A ok so you don't have the send and return in that diagram. is that not needed anymore with this method? See my picture below Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd2rk Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 If all you're using the Quilter for is to amplify your preset for stage monitoring then, no, the S/R block is NOT necessary. You only need that if you're using the 4cm method, taking advantage of the previously described ability to use Helix amps OR the Quilter Pre-amp. You desired to have less cabling and to use only the Quilter Power Amp, and this is it! Four cables - guitar to Helix, Helix to Quilter, Helix to FOH, Quilter to Stage cab. Bada Bing, Bada Boom! Rock'n'Roll! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmlakar Posted August 31, 2020 Author Share Posted August 31, 2020 On 8/25/2020 at 3:20 PM, rd2rk said: If all you're using the Quilter for is to amplify your preset for stage monitoring then, no, the S/R block is NOT necessary. You only need that if you're using the 4cm method, taking advantage of the previously described ability to use Helix amps OR the Quilter Pre-amp. You desired to have less cabling and to use only the Quilter Power Amp, and this is it! Four cables - guitar to Helix, Helix to Quilter, Helix to FOH, Quilter to Stage cab. Bada Bing, Bada Boom! Rock'n'Roll! Sorry to be a pain, this is really freaking confusing to me and I have a bunch of gigs coming up and need to figure it out. So to recap, I only want to use the quilter for stage sound and to power my powerless 2x12 cab. However, I want that sound to match the FOH so I know what it sounds like to the audience (obviously). That said, can you tell me what the cable routing would be for the scenario above you describe where I do not need S/R block. It sounds like its not really a true 4cm because I would need the s/r block for that i thought. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd2rk Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 On 8/31/2020 at 8:26 AM, jmlakar said: I want that sound to match the FOH so I know what it sounds like to the audience (obviously). Not gonna happen. Even if you mic the cab, it's going to sound like a mic'd cab, not the cab on stage. You can get CLOSE if you use a FRFR speaker on stage and send the same signal to it and to FOH, but unless FOH is using the same speaker as you, it will sound different. And then there's the FOH sound tech to consider. It's his/her job to make you sound good out front, and he may or may not be good at his/her job. Reality - get the sound on stage that inspires you to play your best, you have little if any control over FOH. Guitar>Helix>1/4" L/Mono (no cab/IR) out to Quilter FX Return>Quilter out to cab (no cab sim) Helix XLR L/Mono (with cab/IR) out to FOH 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestOpinion Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 This is essentially just a recap of rd2rk's points regarding using an FRFR versus a more traditional amp/cab approach as a monitor. Using an FRFR gets you the closest to hearing what the audience is hearing when using a modeler although that is, as already mentioned, subject to other variables such as the sound tech's skill and how similar your FRFR is to the PA speakers. As long as you are using a Quilter into a guitar cab you are using more of a "traditional" approach. Although the Quilter may be more "neutral than say a Boogie or Marshall head it is still going into a guitar cab with a limited frequency range and without a separate driver/horn(think tweeter) such as you find in a PA speaker(FRFR). A guitar cabinet inherently sounds different from the PA and presets designed using a guitar cabinet, generally speaking, will not translate as directly to FOH. That doesn't mean that your presets may not sound grand through the FOH, depending on a range of factors. I would, as rd2rk pointed out, give your current setup a try. If you are inspired by the sound you are getting on stage you may find that in short order you will learn to adjust your presets to a compromise that also gets you a good sound at FOH. If that does not happen you can always experiment with swapping your current rig out for an FRFR to narrow the gap between what you hear on stage versus FOH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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