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DrRighteous

The looper could easily be more useful

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The looper in the HX Effects is useless to anyone who wants to sync to anything. If you are a solo artist and you always set the tempo - I'm sure it's fine.

I know that midi-sync is probably a feature that would involve more programming than Line 6 want's to invest in, but how about just letting us set the delay time for the looper?

That's how looping was done back in the day. When Fripp was playing into a tape loop, he already knew the tape length/loop time/bpm, so if he wanted to, he could reasonably sync to something.

The delays in the HX Effect allow you to do just that, and then use a footswitch to 'hold' the delay. That's a looper! and a more useful looper than the 'looper' they included.

If you set your delay time to the maximum of 2 seconds, that's one bar of 120-bpm, and that will stay in sync for a good while, assuming their internal clock is a solid digital source.


But 2 seconds is not enough for loop artists. We want to loop 4 bars of 80bpm, and those 2 seconds of delay won't cut it.

 

Sorry about the rant, it's easy to make a basic looper useful to more people, and yet it's still so rare.

S.

 

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Agreed.  Better yet, include a real looper.  I simply can't fathom that it isn't possible, and it has been requested SO MUCH that I'd think they'd want to put the financial investment into design, development, QA and integration into a future FW release.

 

honestly it matters more to me than most of the other requests.  More than polyphonic pitch, even, although that certainly is the other big request that people feel is critical.

 

With those two things - this seriously would imho THE modeler to beat, hands down.

 

As it is now, it's already in that ballpark, but requires a couple of fairly expensive other pedals in your fx loop (poly pitch and a good looper) to do what I do.

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IIRC, a mono block of simple delay, should have 8 seconds available.

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11 hours ago, DrRighteous said:

Sorry about the rant, it's easy to make a basic looper useful to more people, and yet it's still so rare.


IIRC - Digital Igloo said that the whole point of having SEND/RETURN inserts was to allow people to patch in external favourite stomp boxes or whatever. Apparently, the thinking behind this was anyone who was using specialist loopers (Boss RC-30) in their performance could easily hook up to the Helix/HXFX etc. There are so many looper pedals out there - why reinvent the wheel, especially if looping is your “big thing” you possibly already had some efficient hardware. 
 

The looper in the HX family of products is more of a novelty, certainly not what you expect or are asking for. The best thing I found to do with it is to place it as the first block in the signal chain and then record a short snippet of audio and then you can easily switch amps, cabs IRs, effects etc., with both hands free.

 

For the sort of features you are asking for there are plenty of options available from TC Electronic (Ditto x4), Electro Harmonix (720 stereo), Pigtronix (Infinity 2), plus the ubiquitous Boss range.

 

Although, now, as you have invested in the HX Effects, then Line 6 should give you all those extra features - free! I guess that you must have known that the looper didn’t do all that other stuff when you bought the HXFX. You did check - didn’t you?

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I have to admit I'm not the least bit concerned about the limitations of the looper in Helix.  But that's because I'm part of the massive crowd of people that's never found a need for one.  And I suspect that may be what's behind Line 6's thinking on such things.  Looper effects such as those mentioned above by datacommando are in a category of much more specialized effects than the common distortion, compression, eq, delay, reverb, modulation...etc. that come with the Helix.  Things that most, if not all of us commonly use.  And I'm not sure I, or many like me, would be willing to pay a significantly higher price for my Helix due to it hosting an effect I'd rarely ever use.  If you have a driving need for it in your performance feel free to get a good one that fits your needs and use the send/returns provided.

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Here here. I always use a dedicated looper (Boomerang III) in my live setup with my HX Effects. The button functions in a dedicated looper are carefully designed by the manufacturer for creative performance looping, and they are often complex. There is no way I would want to try to combine those looper functions and switches into a Helix floor pedal. Helix buttons are designed perfectly for switching presets and effects. Live looping is, in my opinion, a separate "thing" and it really helps to mentally and physically isolate the looper buttons and functions apart from the Helix amp sim and effects. In the heat of a performance during frantic button stomping and riffing, the last thing I want is having to think about buttons and what they do.

 

One other point: there is significant variation between available dedicated loopers (price, functions, number of parallel and series loops, ability to store loops, etc). Shop for a looper that meets your needs, read the manual and earn how to use it, practice with it, and you will always have a looper friend that always does what you want. You can use it with whatever amp sim or effects pedals you use in the future. Use the Helix looper to test presets; that's what its best used for...

 

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Then, if you want the most intimidating and powerful looper ever made, go for a EDP (or two, or three etc...)...:)

 

 

531A77B6-A01B-4B96-86FA-73EB4F936C42.jpeg

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Good points all around.

I'm curious now to check out the boomerang.

 

PierM - Yeah, I was using BPM mode where you max out at 1 full measure, but now I realize you can have some delay blocks use BPM and others use time, which opens up the regular stereo delay to 4 seconds, or 8 seconds mono.

 

I totally get that many users would prefer a dedicated looper, and I have some of those, but the HX is soooo close to allowing me to use less gear!

 

My request is to allow users to set the delay time for the looper, before you start looping. It's a much simpler request than asking for full on midi-sync or anything like that.

 

Alternately, just having a delay block that uses that long delay time, would work, you can freeze that with 100% Feedback. If Line 6 is listening, this simple request would really open up some possibilities.

 

PierM - also - I would love to have an EDP! 

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I tend to look at the the looper on the Helix more as a "Previewer".  It lacks two critical requirements IMO - the ability to store loops and a longer loop time. It is great however as datacommando pointed out for throwing a few chords and leads on to roll through, preview, and dial in presets. At 120 seconds set to half-speed it has more than enough memory to pull this task off. It will also do for simple looping tasks of medium-short duration. For anything else you are going to want an external looper pedal. I have an old Digitech JamMan Solo that serves me well for my minimal looping requirements.

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1 hour ago, DrRighteous said:

would love to have an EDP! 

 

Yeah, right and I would like a Quantec Room Simulator, buy it ain’t gonna happen.

 

I thought your idea was - quote:

I totally get that many users would prefer a dedicated looper, and I have some of those, but the HX is soooo close to allowing me to use less gear!”


Furthermore, FYI, posting requests like this goes nowhere on this forum:

“If Line 6 is listening, this simple request would really open up some possibilities”.
Nope, this is a user to user thing - Line 6 don’t routinely monitor these threads - no one can hear you scream in space!

It also really amuses me that these idea requests are usually described as “simple”.

 

If you have a “feature request” for something you would like added to a Line 6 product, you need to post to IdeaScale. Be sure to check that the idea has not been added perviously or you will water down the votes. Go here and sign up.

 

https://line6.ideascale.com/a/campaign-home/51424

 

Once you have done that you can mention it in the pinned thread at the top of this forum to see if can attract others to vote for it.


Easy really!

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With the effort they put into giving the helix looper a dedicated button layout, more buttons than most cheap 1 button loopers that are, shockingly, more useful, it's really frustrating to have it be such a restrictive, dangerous challenge to use. 

 

I understand it wasn't designed to have persistent memory between power on/off or patch changes etc.... but if it did, it would be a huge help right away.  I have no idea if there is the ability to do that or if it's restricted by the hardware.  If not, it's still capable of so much more than it does now.  How about proper dual tracks (A/B style, or layering style)?  That wouldn't reuqire changes to the hardware - 2 tracks, yes half length ones, but that suddenly gives a musician the ability to create real time proper looper songs that have parts that come in and out without having to use extreme care in your live track playing order.  I'm fairly certain that this is possible with the appropriate software (firmware)... of course, lots of coding work, but it's not like they're inventing the business logic for loopers - it's all out there and some amazing examples are in public domain, not to mention their own old, but solid, hardware loopers.

 

There is enough interest in the line6 helix included looper that a quick googling revealed a handful youtube clips about how to use the looper in the helix, amounting to 30 minutes of education about it with zero effort in google.  That's before I scrolled my screen down.  But I still can't use it for anything but the most simplistic looper song building... which is cool, but archaic.

 

If there is that much interest in it, then customers want to use it.

 

I don't expect it to turn into a high end looper - I just want it to become a USEFUL looper, competitive with the most basic good live use loopers available for 40 to 80 bucks on amazon.  With the number of dedicated looper-mode buttons the helix has, more than many far superior dedicated loopers, the only flaw is likely the lack of development time and resources they have been given to create something more powerful. 

 

Short loop lengths?  That's ok if the loops are useful and reliable and can be turned on/off in real time in productive ways. 

 

They already include the difficult part in the helix.  It HAS a functioning looper, with a special foot switch mode for it, with it's own color scheme, block, etc.  It's just so so close, but it's like it's unfinished.

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2 hours ago, donkelley said:

With the effort they put into giving the helix looper a dedicated button layout, more buttons than most cheap 1 button loopers that are, shockingly, more useful, it's really frustrating to have it be such a restrictive, dangerous challenge to use. 

 

I understand it wasn't designed to have persistent memory between power on/off or patch changes etc.... but if it did, it would be a huge help right away.  I have no idea if there is the ability to do that or if it's restricted by the hardware.  If not, it's still capable of so much more than it does now.  How about proper dual tracks (A/B style, or layering style)?  That wouldn't reuqire changes to the hardware - 2 tracks, yes half length ones, but that suddenly gives a musician the ability to create real time proper looper songs that have parts that come in and out without having to use extreme care in your live track playing order.  I'm fairly certain that this is possible with the appropriate software (firmware)... of course, lots of coding work, but it's not like they're inventing the business logic for loopers - it's all out there and some amazing examples are in public domain, not to mention their own old, but solid, hardware loopers.

 

There is enough interest in the line6 helix included looper that a quick googling revealed a handful youtube clips about how to use the looper in the helix, amounting to 30 minutes of education about it with zero effort in google.  That's before I scrolled my screen down.  But I still can't use it for anything but the most simplistic looper song building... which is cool, but archaic.

 

If there is that much interest in it, then customers want to use it.

 

I don't expect it to turn into a high end looper - I just want it to become a USEFUL looper, competitive with the most basic good live use loopers available for 40 to 80 bucks on amazon.  With the number of dedicated looper-mode buttons the helix has, more than many far superior dedicated loopers, the only flaw is likely the lack of development time and resources they have been given to create something more powerful. 

 

Short loop lengths?  That's ok if the loops are useful and reliable and can be turned on/off in real time in productive ways. 

 

They already include the difficult part in the helix.  It HAS a functioning looper, with a special foot switch mode for it, with it's own color scheme, block, etc.  It's just so so close, but it's like it's unfinished.


 

O.K. Here we go again - this is like trying to explain what colour “red” is to someone who was born blind!

 

“it's really frustrating to have it be such a restrictive, dangerous challenge to use.”

Dangerous? How so? That’s a very strange comment, has anyone died using it?

 

I have no idea

Now, there’s a statement you made that could well be true.

 

“it's still capable of so much more than it does now.”

You can prove this - obviously?

 

I'm fairly certain that this is possible with the appropriate software (firmware)... of course, lots of coding work,...”

And, of course you have knowledge and experience of this?

 

“But I still can't use it for anything but the most simplistic looper song building... which is cool, but archaic.”

Therefore, you went ahead and bought a product that did not fulfill your expectations! Oh, dear. How sad, never mind!

 

“competitive with the most basic good live use loopers available for 40 to 80 bucks on amazon.”

Hello! Would you believe it - that’s exactly what I did. It’s called “tools to do the job”, but no, because you bought into the Helix, now everything you ever dreamed should be included FREE!
I won’t quote the all of the Tubes “What Do You Want From Life” again, but “a baby's arm holding an apple?”... you get the idea?

 

lack of development time and resources they have been given to create something more powerful.

Ha, ha, ha! And you know this? How?

 

“It's just so so close, but it's like it's unfinished.

Well it’s been there for 5 years so, maybe when they finish developing the next generation of the firmware, they can go back to investing more time and resources to creating something more powerful which may save you having to buy a $50 looper.

 

I really cannot comprehend this “entitlement” attitude or where it comes from.

In my day whinging children were left to perish on frozen, wind swept mountain tops. 

How come everyone thinks this stuff that spent 10 years in research and development is so simple to modify on a whim of some ungrateful...

 

I really do despair for humanity’s future if this is it.

 

Be happy with what you have!

 

WTF.

 

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27 minutes ago, datacommando said:


 

O.K. Here we go again - this is like trying to explain what colour “red” is to someone who was born blind!

 

“it's really frustrating to have it be such a restrictive, dangerous challenge to use.”

Dangerous? How so? That’s a very strange comment, has anyone died using it?

 

I have no idea

Now, there’s a statement you made that could well be true.

 

“it's still capable of so much more than it does now.”

You can prove this - obviously?

 

I'm fairly certain that this is possible with the appropriate software (firmware)... of course, lots of coding work,...”

And, of course you have knowledge and experience of this?

 

“But I still can't use it for anything but the most simplistic looper song building... which is cool, but archaic.”

Therefore, you went ahead and bought a product that did not fulfill your expectations! Oh, dear. How sad, never mind!

 

“competitive with the most basic good live use loopers available for 40 to 80 bucks on amazon.”

Hello! Would you believe it - that’s exactly what I did. It’s called “tools to do the job”, but no, because you bought into the Helix, now everything you ever dreamed should be included FREE!
I won’t quote the all of the Tubes “What Do You Want From Life” again, but “a baby's arm holding an apple?”... you get the idea?

 

lack of development time and resources they have been given to create something more powerful.

Ha, ha, ha! And you know this? How?

 

“It's just so so close, but it's like it's unfinished.

Well it’s been there for 5 years so, maybe when they finish developing the next generation of the firmware, they can go back to investing more time and resources to creating something more powerful which may save you having to buy a $50 looper.

 

I really cannot comprehend this “entitlement” attitude or where it comes from.

In my day whinging children were left to perish on frozen, wind swept mountain tops. 

How come everyone thinks this stuff that spent 10 years in research and development is so simple to modify on a whim of some ungrateful...

 

I really do despair for humanity’s future if this is it.

 

Be happy with what you have!

 

WTF.

 

 

Really?

 

Dangerous, OBVIOUSLY in the sense that it's dangerous to use live without errors happening. If you use loopers, you know what I'm talking about.

 

You're a sarcastic person, aren't you?  I guess you take this all very personally.

 

FWIW, I'm a huge fan of the Helix, and a professional musician for nearly 4 decades.  I'm not a fool, nor ignorant about my statements, and I clearly pointed out my frustration about the current state of the looper as it appears, to me, to be something that was designed to be an impressive feature that was released with a more simplistic feature set than is ideal, probably due to R&D cost reasons (since that is typically was causes incomplete feature development).

 

If you disagree with my view, that's perfectly fine.

 

I however don't assume that you are a moron because you disagree with me.

 

There's nothing wrong with finding fault in a product you own.  I find fault in one feature in an otherwise absolutely stunning piece of equipment which I chose over the Axe FM3 when I had the opportunity to use both, and have extensive experience in modelling.

 

And yes, I understand the workflow of firmware development, having worked as a senior developer in two different firmware development companies for many years, having been involved in software management for several years, and so forth.  Anyone in the industry understands the complexities in software and firmware development.

 

So I'm not saying this out of naivety or arrogance, I'm saying it out of personal experience with the workflow a company like Line6 must go through, the costs, complexities, planning, surprises that come up, and the portability of existing business logic while requiring redevelopment for new hardware and, likely, using a new or strongly updated dev stack.

 

So it takes a lot of money - but the hardware is not the limitation in the points I stated that about.

 

What's your personal background?  Why are you assuming I'm making this stuff up?

 

There is ZERO sense of entitlement.  How old are you anyhow?  I'm in my 50s and worked my lollipop off to get my degrees, and had nothing handed to me along the way.

 

The only arrogance I see here is someone assuming that statements from a stranger must be from an entitled fool.

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11 hours ago, donkelley said:

 

Really?

 

Dangerous, OBVIOUSLY in the sense that it's dangerous to use live without errors happening. If you use loopers, you know what I'm talking about.

 

You're a sarcastic person, aren't you?  I guess you take this all very personally.

 

FWIW, I'm a huge fan of the Helix, and a professional musician for nearly 4 decades.  I'm not a fool, nor ignorant about my statements, and I clearly pointed out my frustration about the current state of the looper as it appears, to me, to be something that was designed to be an impressive feature that was released with a more simplistic feature set than is ideal, probably due to R&D cost reasons (since that is typically was causes incomplete feature development).

 

If you disagree with my view, that's perfectly fine.

 

I however don't assume that you are a moron because you disagree with me.

 

There's nothing wrong with finding fault in a product you own.  I find fault in one feature in an otherwise absolutely stunning piece of equipment which I chose over the Axe FM3 when I had the opportunity to use both, and have extensive experience in modelling.

 

And yes, I understand the workflow of firmware development, having worked as a senior developer in two different firmware development companies for many years, having been involved in software management for several years, and so forth.  Anyone in the industry understands the complexities in software and firmware development.

 

So I'm not saying this out of naivety or arrogance, I'm saying it out of personal experience with the workflow a company like Line6 must go through, the costs, complexities, planning, surprises that come up, and the portability of existing business logic while requiring redevelopment for new hardware and, likely, using a new or strongly updated dev stack.

 

So it takes a lot of money - but the hardware is not the limitation in the points I stated that about.

 

What's your personal background?  Why are you assuming I'm making this stuff up?

 

There is ZERO sense of entitlement.  How old are you anyhow?  I'm in my 50s and worked my lollipop off to get my degrees, and had nothing handed to me along the way.

 

The only arrogance I see here is someone assuming that statements from a stranger must be from an entitled fool.


 

Aw, come on!

 

Dangerous -  that’s usually a term to associate with “hazardous to heath”. Danger of electrocution etc.

 

“You're a sarcastic person, aren't you?”

Nope - I speak as I find and why should I take it personally. I don’t work for Line 6 - I’m a Helix user, just like you!

 

If you disagree with my view, that's perfectly fine.”

I do - otherwise this wouldn’t be happening, and that’s perfectly fine - get over it!

 

I however don't assume that you are a moron because you disagree with me.”

I didn’t assume you are a moron either, you implied that I did  - although I do disagree with you.

 

Anyone in the industry understands the complexities in software and firmware development.”

Now you are agreeing with me that other things have taken priority over a built in looper facility that you don’t like and that can be solved by using a dedicated device.

 

So it takes a lot of money”

And resources, etc. Nuff said.

 

What's your personal background?  Why are you assuming I'm making this stuff up?”

Well my background is irrelevant to the looper issue. Plus, once more, you think I’m making an assumption - that might be you making assumptions about me.

 

There is ZERO sense of entitlement.”

Sorry, but it may have seemed like that from your comments,

 

How old are you anyhow?”

Once more, irrelevant - but retired, so let’s say somewhat older than you. 

 

I'm in my 50s and worked my a$$ off to get my degrees, and had nothing handed to me along the way.”

That’s a little defensive - but good for you. I never said you didn’t do any of that stuff. I did say that there seems to be a general air of “entitlement” around and you appeared to be contributing.

 

The only arrogance I see here is someone assuming that statements from a stranger must be from an entitled fool”.

Yet again - that assumption is  on your part.

 

DILLIGAF!

 

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50 minutes ago, donkelley said:

 

 

FWIW, I'm a huge fan of the Helix, and a professional musician for nearly 4 decades.  I'm not a fool, nor ignorant about my statements, and I clearly pointed out my frustration about the current state of the looper as it appears, to me, to be something that was designed to be an impressive feature that was released with a more simplistic feature set than is ideal, probably due to R&D cost reasons (since that is typically was causes incomplete feature development).

 

And yes, I understand the workflow of firmware development, having worked as a senior developer in two different firmware development companies for many years, having been involved in software management for several years, and so forth.  Anyone in the industry understands the complexities in software and firmware development.

 

So I'm not saying this out of naivety or arrogance, I'm saying it out of personal experience with the workflow a company like Line6 must go through, the costs, complexities, planning, surprises that come up, and the portability of existing business logic while requiring redevelopment for new hardware and, likely, using a new or strongly updated dev stack.

 

So it takes a lot of money - but the hardware is not the limitation in the points I stated that about.

 

 

 

I would still suggest you're making a broad set of assumptions about why there isn't a full featured looper system in the Helix based on YOUR needs, and not necessarily the market needs.

It's been my experience with Helix over the last 5 years are that the things that are most readily responded to by the development team are the ones that have the widest application across the user base and specifically within the scope of the product.  I've seen interest in expanded looper capabilities occasionally, but it doesn't really compare to request for features like better management of IRs or polyphonic pitch shifting which we know is on the table for development, but isn't there yet.

R&D costs are relative because they're measured against the potential market growth. That's the product development view which is very different from the development view.  We understand L6 hired expertise in polyphonic coding, so that certainly was a big R&D cost, but measured against the market share for POGs and such, and the fact that falls clearly in the modeling segment of the Helix market potential makes it a worthy investment.  I'm not sure I could say the same as far as complex looper usage.  You see it occasionally out in the field, but not to the extent you see POG-like features being used.  And there may be other physical limitations in the Helix design that make it problematic.  For example looping is really a very simple recording and playback functionality, but the Helix is designed more specifically for modeling suggesting it is far heavier in DSP computational resource programming than it is in managing large memory resources which would be something necessary for more complex looping situations.

Quite honestly I don't care either way because I don't use a complex looper and have no need for one.  If it shows up, that's fine as long as I'm not force to pay for it on an upgrade or something.

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21 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

 

I would still suggest you're making a broad set of assumptions about why there isn't a full featured looper system in the Helix based on YOUR needs, and not necessarily the market needs.

It's been my experience with Helix over the last 5 years are that the things that are most readily responded to by the development team are the ones that have the widest application across the user base and specifically within the scope of the product.  I've seen interest in expanded looper capabilities occasionally, but it doesn't really compare to request for features like better management of IRs or polyphonic pitch shifting which we know is on the table for development, but isn't there yet.

R&D costs are relative because they're measured against the potential market growth. That's the product development view which is very different from the development view.  We understand L6 hired expertise in polyphonic coding, so that certainly was a big R&D cost, but measured against the market share for POGs and such, and the fact that falls clearly in the modeling segment of the Helix market potential makes it a worthy investment.  I'm not sure I could say the same as far as complex looper usage.  You see it occasionally out in the field, but not to the extent you see POG-like features being used.  And there may be other physical limitations in the Helix design that make it problematic.  For example looping is really a very simple recording and playback functionality, but the Helix is designed more specifically for modeling suggesting it is far heavier in DSP computational resource programming than it is in managing large memory resources which would be something necessary for more complex looping situations.

Quite honestly I don't care either way because I don't use a complex looper and have no need for one.  If it shows up, that's fine as long as I'm not force to pay for it on an upgrade or something.

Absolutely, yes, I am making a broad set of assumptions - although they're hardly WAGs or anything.

 

That wasn't the point of what I said, though.  I have strong feelings about the looper - there are open source loopers for pcs that are far more powerful than the looper in the helix - of course pc resources aren't limited, so it's an unfair comparison.  My point of mentioning that, though, is that the state of loopers has gotten to the point where anyone can grab a useful, live targetted looper, for the price of a nice dinner out you and your date.

 

So, that being said, it still seems to me like it is incomplete - for all the reasons I pointed out already.

 

No sense in rehashing it - folks here seem pretty defensive that the helix looper is exactly as it should be, and that disagreeing with that must mean I'm asking for something unusual, or making assumptions about the R&D that couldn't possibly be accurate since I don't work for Line6.

 

So it's ok - I made my claims about how I feel the looper appears incomplete to me, as though there were big plans for it but it looked like it would cost too much so further feature dev was stopped, and I'd bet real money that there is a developer or two at Line6 who would say that too, behind closed doors.  I also pointed out good reasoning for my assumptions that it's a desired feature from a quick google finding a lot of youtubes dedicated to it specifically.

 

Seems like a pretty rational post, all in all :-)

 

I appreciate your reply - it makes a lot of sense, and doesn't disagree with what I was saying, actually.  Just points out the reasons why I might be wrong, which I totally don't dispute.

 

Cheers :-)

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22 hours ago, datacommando said:


 

Aw, come on!

 

Dangerous -  that’s usually a term to associate with “hazardous to heath”. Danger of electrocution etc.

 

“You're a sarcastic person, aren't you?”

Nope - I speak as I find and why should I take it personally. I don’t work for Line 6 - I’m a Helix user, just like you!

 

If you disagree with my view, that's perfectly fine.”

I do - otherwise this wouldn’t be happening, and that’s perfectly fine - get over it!

 

I however don't assume that you are a moron because you disagree with me.”

I didn’t assume you are a moron either, you implied that I did  - although I do disagree with you.

 

Anyone in the industry understands the complexities in software and firmware development.”

Now you are agreeing with me that other things have taken priority over a built in looper facility that you don’t like and that can be solved by using a dedicated device.

 

So it takes a lot of money”

And resources, etc. Nuff said.

 

What's your personal background?  Why are you assuming I'm making this stuff up?”

Well my background is irrelevant to the looper issue. Plus, once more, you think I’m making an assumption - that might be you making assumptions about me.

 

There is ZERO sense of entitlement.”

Sorry, but it may have seemed like that from your comments,

 

How old are you anyhow?”

Once more, irrelevant - but retired, so let’s say somewhat older than you. 

 

I'm in my 50s and worked my a$$ off to get my degrees, and had nothing handed to me along the way.”

That’s a little defensive - but good for you. I never said you didn’t do any of that stuff. I did say that there seems to be a general air of “entitlement” around and you appeared to be contributing.

 

The only arrogance I see here is someone assuming that statements from a stranger must be from an entitled fool”.

Yet again - that assumption is  on your part.

 

DILLIGAF!

 

So.... I took the following statement to be disparaging about my intelligence:

I have no idea

Now, there’s a statement you made that could well be true.

 

Hmmm... well there seems to be room for interpretation, I guess, but among my family that's something folks say when they're being general about the person, not specific to the topic.  If you meant that I have no idea about the helix looper, well, that's sort of a strange point to make, imho.  I clearly have used loopers, I know how the helix looper works, I have a strong idea of the feature set I'm looking for in any looper, I pointed out another looper that has superior features, etc.  So, to me, for you to state a general statement about me having no idea, well that seems like something you really should have expected a defensive reaction to.  Why else would you provoke me like that? 

 

 

"Dangerous" - we're talking about loopers here.  If you actually have used loopers for live work, you know how dangerous they can be, and how important it is to have a few fundamental features to save you when something goes wrong.  The word "dangerous" absolutely applies here.

I googled it:

- able or likely to cause harm or injury.

- likely to cause problems or to have adverse consequences.

- Similar: hazardous, perilous, risky, high-risk, ,raught with danger, unsafe

 

So, maybe you assumed I meant that missing features could somehow harm you, although that seems very highly unlikely.  Surprisingly enough, I actually meant danger in how the looper works in relation to live performance, which is what I was discussing in my post.

 

Sarcasm - what came across in most of your responses.  If they weren't intended to sound sarcastic, you have to understand that the way you reply to things, finding fault repeatedly in minutia that was apparently taken out of context or without granting that maybe I know something about the industry that you might not..... it comes across as sarcastic.

 

"get over it"... get over it?  You didn't disagree with my statements, which you claim is what I need to "Get over" - you disagreed with my opinions of the line6 helix looper because, what, you think it's impossible for someone to make rational, possibly accurate conclusions about the product without actually working for line6?   Is that it?  I couldn't possibly be correct since I don't have proof of my educated guesses about how things work at line6, which I guess couldn't possibly be similar in general to how it works at all other companies inventing firmware for their own hardware design in a competitive world with short deadlines and constant feature requests, marketing teams, QA stages, and follows the development lifecycle.

 

I made guesses about it based on having a lot of experience in the industry, something that I most musicians don't have.  It's a helpful set of knowledge that gives me some insight into some of the common things that happen in these companies, and I wouldn't be surprised, therefore, to find that the looper was going to go further than it currently does, but there hasn't been the money to do so (money which pays for human resources that do the work, not to mention the time it takes until that gets to customers).

 

There's nothing wrong with saying what I said - I'm perfectly fine with being wrong about it.  What I'm not ok with is being told I need to prove and defend my ideas.

 

Why do I need to prove anything?  I feel it's likely I'm right, but I could be wrong about why the looper is like this.  Maybe it's exactly how Line6 wanted it, or maybe even more than they hoped for, and they are enjoying it's success.  That's great -- I'd be surprised, but it's perfectly fine.  We will likely never know, either way.

 

It's not up to you to tell me I'm wrong - nor is it up to me to prove I'm correct.

 

I just strongly feel that the looper is lacking in a few ways, and I'm not the only one.

 

If this thread isn't about finding fault in the looper - then what the heck is it about?

 

"The looper could easily be more useful" is the thread title.

 

I agree completely - and I even explained how I feel it wouldn't be that challenging.  I am very aware of how hardware restricts things versus firmware, and I'm sorry that maybe you think I must prove that.

 

But you really are replying with strongly antagonistic posts.... which seems odd, to me.

 

You assume I couldn't come to rational, or accurate conclusions about the looper and why it's like this.  I thought my conclusions make a lot of sense, and I stand by my assumptions that line6 follows the development lifecycle, has a marketing team and financial team and deals with thousands of feature requests and weights pros/cons and dev costs for each, and eventually had to not go as far with the included looper as they may have originally intended.

 

Have a great day!

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 8/1/2020 at 3:51 AM, DunedinDragon said:

I have to admit I'm not the least bit concerned about the limitations of the looper in Helix.  But that's because I'm part of the massive crowd of people that's never found a need for one.  And I suspect that may be what's behind Line 6's thinking on such things.  Looper effects such as those mentioned above by datacommando are in a category of much more specialized effects than the common distortion, compression, eq, delay, reverb, modulation...etc. that come with the Helix.  Things that most, if not all of us commonly use.  And I'm not sure I, or many like me, would be willing to pay a significantly higher price for my Helix due to it hosting an effect I'd rarely ever use.  If you have a driving need for it in your performance feel free to get a good one that fits your needs and use the send/returns provided.

If you are part of the massive crowd of people that's never found the need for a looper, why on earth are you posting in a thread who's sole topic is to discuss the limitations of the current looper in the product?

 

That's like someone going into a thread complaining about the limitations in Fender basses because they are pretty much all bolt-on models instead of neck through, and you post that you're not the least bit concerned about Fender basses being bolt on.  This is because you are part of the massive crowd of people who've never found a need for a neck through bass.


You started your post by pointing out that this has nothing to do with you, and you don't care at all about it, but you went through with posting opinions about it anyhow.

 

If you think the price of the helix would be significantly higher by them improving a feature, then I guess it must have skyrocketed with every amazing firmware release where they add HUNDREDS of new features and improve existing features by leaps and bounds.

 

Just because you don't care about a feature doesn't make the feature less important to those who are creating, and participating in, a thread about that feature.  And your logic about costs doesn't follow with how line6 does business.

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11 hours ago, donkelley said:

I thought my conclusions make a lot of sense, and I stand by my assumptions that line6 follows the development lifecycle, has a marketing team and financial team and deals with thousands of feature requests and weights pros/cons and dev costs for each, and eventually had to not go as far with the included looper as they may have originally intended.


Initially I wasn’t going to reply to your tedious inanity because life is too short to engage in a pi$$ing contest with you. I could spend all day pointing out all your contradictions and assumptions that you make about the looper and the internal policy decisions of Line 6 finance and R&D. If this stuff didn’t make me laugh so much it would be pitiful, and if you think that I am being sarcastic, you should try posting this nonsense over on TGP and see how they react over there.


FYI The Helix looper has been discussed at length, starting way back in 2016, and since then that particular thread has been resurrected twice. Therefore, instead of ploughing over old ground, I would suggest that you read it - especially the comments made by Digital Igloo (head of product development)  which may provide some genuine insight about the Helix looper.

 

As, “soundog” pointed out in one of his posts:-

“... this thread is destined to loop over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over”

 

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The most insulting arrogant person I've ever seen on a forum.  I didn't start the thread.

 

I joined in with the OP's thread points, talking about the helix specifically in my post, and brought up it's looper limitations, and suggested some logical conclusions about why it's like that, and the first thing you said to me was this:

 

" O.K. Here we go again - this is like trying to explain what colour “red” is to someone who was born blind! "

 

So who exactly started all of this?  How exactly is that not incredibly insulting, and assuming a lot about me, and not sarcastic?  You clearly think you have some senior rights in this forum and that everyone else must be ignorant and able to read your mind, so your first response is repeatedly wildly sarcastic and insulting.  Why exactly are you so defensive about the helix looper?  Look at your response to musiclover7's question about the looper length... a post that received 4 upvotes.  You're standing alone in your behavior here.  Thanks for completely derailing a very interesting thread.


You mentioned 2016.  I have not owned a helix since 2016.  But I take it that the looper hasn't been updated significantly since then, and I stand by my thoughts of how it could be improved in firmware alone, no hardware changes, to make it a live performance tool.  To me, the looper, like all of the helix, is still pretty new since I bought mine in 2020.

 

I do appreciate the link to a thread I didn't know existed from digital Igloo... since, as I noted, I am NOT the OP... I didn't have any reason to search before contributing to a thread about the helix firmware looper limitations.  Digital Igloo is amazing, and I've enjoyed his insights in my reading since I purchased the helix not that long ago.

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47 minutes ago, donkelley said:

The most insulting arrogant person I've ever seen on a forum. 

 

You should try spending some time over at The Gear Page.  The good folks here are extremely tame compared to that place.

 

As I understand it, the looper was never meant to be a major selling point of the Helix, or in your case, HX Effects.  I'm not sure what the technical limitations are when it comes to the hardware/software, but it is quite possible that adding the features of a top tier looper would have increased price of Helix beyond the scope of the targeted price point.  Adding a sync for delay time might seem trivial, but in all honestly, no one here knows unless they are in direct contact with the development team.

 

Whenever I buy a product, I buy it for what it can do today and not for what I want it to do in the future with an assumed firmware update.  It is up to the consumer to educate themselves on what they are buying and if it will meet their expectations.  And complaining about it here isn't going to help.  Line 6 employees are rarely seen here.  They like hanging out with the cool kids elsewhere.   Therefor, if you came here to rant and make sure Line 6 hears you, it's going to fall on deaf ears.

If you need help with anything, there are quite a few more than knowledgeable people here who can help.  If you want something more out of HX Effects, either vote for or post your own idea over at line6.ideascale.com.  

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1 hour ago, lungho said:

 

You should try spending some time over at The Gear Page.  The good folks here are extremely tame compared to that place.

 

As I understand it, the looper was never meant to be a major selling point of the Helix, or in your case, HX Effects.  I'm not sure what the technical limitations are when it comes to the hardware/software, but it is quite possible that adding the features of a top tier looper would have increased price of Helix beyond the scope of the targeted price point.  Adding a sync for delay time might seem trivial, but in all honestly, no one here knows unless they are in direct contact with the development team.

 

Whenever I buy a product, I buy it for what it can do today and not for what I want it to do in the future with an assumed firmware update.  It is up to the consumer to educate themselves on what they are buying and if it will meet their expectations.  And complaining about it here isn't going to help.  Line 6 employees are rarely seen here.  They like hanging out with the cool kids elsewhere.   Therefor, if you came here to rant and make sure Line 6 hears you, it's going to fall on deaf ears.

If you need help with anything, there are quite a few more than knowledgeable people here who can help.  If you want something more out of HX Effects, either vote for or post your own idea over at line6.ideascale.com.  

 

Great post, thank you :-)

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I dont buy the mantra "L6 wont read". Saaaaame story happened with mediocre reverbs complains (that L6 then improved), with the sloppy tuner complains (that L6 then improved), with meters (that L6 then implemented) and many other things that people asked and complained about, over here...and that later L6 properly implemented or adjusted. It's their flagship product, they read and they care. ;)

(I also work for a software/hardware company, and I can assure you the marketing guys are always reading everything out there on the web.)

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