Questions about High/low cut blocks

[CurveBound]

I recently started playing live with in-ear monitors.

 

For my Helix Patches, I always do a high cut of 10k on the IR block.

 

Playing live with the in-ears, a tone that I considered well balanced sounded like it had more high end. 

 

Decided to experiment with the global EQ.  One thing that caught my attention was that the high cut seemed to be different than in IR the block. 

 

Even with a high cut of 10k on the IR block, the high cut on the global eq seemed to take effect at 17k...which kind of baffles me because I thought those frequencies would already be delt with the cut on the IR block.

 

Do all the various ways of high/low cutting in Helix behave differently?

 

[phil_m]

The slope of for the high and low cuts are shallower in the cab and IR block than they are in the EQ block and global EQ. The cab and IR cuts are at 6dB per octave. All the others are at 12dB per octave.

[CurveBound]

41 minutes ago, phil_m said:

The slope of for the high and low cuts are shallower in the cab and IR block than they are in the EQ block and global EQ. The cab and IR cuts are at 6dB per octave. All the others are at 12dB per octave.

Very informative, thank you

[Hillman1312]

There's a video from Jason Sadites that explains this. He found that a high-cut of 12KhZ using a dedicated EQ block gives (nearly) the same sound as a high-cut of about 5.7 KHz on a Cab/ IR block. I tried this as well and can confirm. 

 

For live playing I have my high cuts between 5 and 5.5 KHz depending on the amp and cab/ir I'm using. On low volume through headphones, studio monitors or even in-ears that may sound a bit dull, but once you start increasing the volume (don't go too high !) you'll find this to work well.

[karlic]

When you are playing live, front of house sound and in ears will appear brighter. This is party volume and the Fletcher-Munson loudness effect, but in ears seem to exaggerate the top for me too.

 

It depends on the IR used, but I keep a global eq setting ready to kick in for live shows. I make a narrow cut at 5.5kHz to tame the fizz and also something around 3.3k usually gets rid of the icepick frequencies to spare the audience. Then high pass at between 80-100hz and then it is strange with the top end. Even 18k low pass seems to take effect, although I run 7k on the IR block.

 

Just be aware that what sounds great at low volume with be biting and fizzy at high volume.

[DunedinDragon]

3 hours ago, Hillman1312 said:

There's a video from Jason Sadites that explains this. He found that a high-cut of 12KhZ using a dedicated EQ block gives (nearly) the same sound as a high-cut of about 5.7 KHz on a Cab/ IR block. I tried this as well and can confirm. 

 

For live playing I have my high cuts between 5 and 5.5 KHz depending on the amp and cab/ir I'm using. On low volume through headphones, studio monitors or even in-ears that may sound a bit dull, but once you start increasing the volume (don't go too high !) you'll find this to work well.

 

I think a key ingredient why Jason Sadites gets such great tones without severe or significant high and low cuts is his attention to detail in how he applies cabinets, mics and mic placements.  Although I don't use the stock cabinets, I tend to follow the same general approach as he uses with IRs typically combining MD421 dynamic and R121 ribbon microphones in such a way that there's not a lot of high and low cuts necessary because there's just not a lot of fizziness.  Like him I use a final parametric EQ on my patches and rarely need a high cut deeper than 8 khz and generally am fine with high cuts in the 10 khz range.  I suspect a lot of folks that require such deep and significant cuts would benefit from cleaner and more authentic tones by following his approach.

[Hillman1312]

40 minutes ago, DunedinDragon said:

 

I think a key ingredient why Jason Sadites gets such great tones without severe or significant high and low cuts is his attention to detail in how he applies cabinets, mics and mic placements.  Although I don't use the stock cabinets, I tend to follow the same general approach as he uses with IRs typically combining MD421 dynamic and R121 ribbon microphones in such a way that there's not a lot of high and low cuts necessary because there's just not a lot of fizziness.  Like him I use a final parametric EQ on my patches and rarely need a high cut deeper than 8 khz and generally am fine with high cuts in the 10 khz range.  I suspect a lot of folks that require such deep and significant cuts would benefit from cleaner and more authentic tones by following his approach.

 

I agree; that said, I tried a few of his tones (the Britt Amp pack) and with my gear they need a bit of tweaking as they're still quite bright. I guess that my be because of the guitar and speakers I'm using.

 

Anyway, when I mentioned 5-5.5 Khz High cut I meant high cut in the IR block. This would be in the same range as having an EQ High cut in the range 8-10. In fact, an 8 KHz EQ high-cut could be similar to an IR-Block High-cut of below 5 ... have not really tested that. I see Scott from the Helix channel very often dial in the high cut of his IR at 4.7 KHz.

 

Anyway, this is all just juggling with numbers .... best thing is probably to experiment at (or close to) gig-volume and see what settings sound good (do protect your ears !)

[DunedinDragon]

3 hours ago, Hillman1312 said:

 

I agree; that said, I tried a few of his tones (the Britt Amp pack) and with my gear they need a bit of tweaking as they're still quite bright. I guess that my be because of the guitar and speakers I'm using.

 

Anyway, when I mentioned 5-5.5 Khz High cut I meant high cut in the IR block. This would be in the same range as having an EQ High cut in the range 8-10. In fact, an 8 KHz EQ high-cut could be similar to an IR-Block High-cut of below 5 ... have not really tested that. I see Scott from the Helix channel very often dial in the high cut of his IR at 4.7 KHz.

 

Anyway, this is all just juggling with numbers .... best thing is probably to experiment at (or close to) gig-volume and see what settings sound good (do protect your ears !)

What I would suggest is what I do.  I don't touch any EQ until I get my amp and IR (or cab) and other effects (compressor, reverb, delay, etc.) relatively close to what I can be happy with.  Only then do I begin to adjust the parametric EQ toward the end of the signal.  When I dial in my tones I'm going through a Yamaha DXR12 which is positioned at about chest height and 5 to 6 feet away and I listen to it both on and off axis as well as with my back turned.  That gives me a highly accurate representation of what will be coming out of he PA.  I think a lot of times it's not just the guitar and your speaker but your position relative to the speaker that can be deceptive.