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HD500X - How quiet should it be while not playing?


JohannDaart
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Hi guys, I'm new to the forum and I just bought used HD500X in perfect condition.

 

(BTW, 15 years ago, when I started playing guitar, my first "amp" was "POD 2.0" ;)

 

The only doubt I have about it, is that when I connect headphones (IEMs) to it, while I'm not playing guitar, there's a really quiet, constant hiss. Something like an empty cassette tape playing in the background.

I can hear it even when Master is turned down to 0. It doesn't get any louder with Master at full. It's just a constant, very quiet hiss.

 

I think my IEMs are highly sensitive, low impedance and they are known for being very bright. With other (bad) headphones I don't hear this quiet hiss. 

 

Is it normal guys? I definitely need to buy some better, higher impedance studio headphones.

 

Anyway, I'm really happy with HD500X, it's truly great even in 2020 :)

Before buying it, I've heard some complaints about it being hard to navigate. But I'm a nerd and I find it awesome and fun :)

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Normally without a guitar connected, the POD should be totally silent.
Then, depending on the type of guitar connected (with humbucker or single coil) and on the selected models (and related settings) in the chain, the background noise can increase to varying degrees.


I don't know what particular headphones you have, but with no guitar connected and with the chain empty I never heard any background noise, whether listening through good low-impedance or high-impedance headphones.


I wonder if the previous owner of your POD hasn't enabled global eq (which has active controls) and emphasized the high frequencies a lot, which thing could generate some hiss noise.

 

But almost certainly the problem is due instead only to your IEMs system since even with the POD master volume at zero you still hear the hiss noise where you should hear absolutely nothing from the POD.

 

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I've re-installed my POD's firmware, to clean it from previous owner's patches (no wonder he sold it) and who knows where he used some setting, easier to wipe than to hunt his settings in Global.

Obviously I also did Global Settings reset + pedal calibration (it calibrates to proper 0-255, so that's nice).

 

After some more testing, what I've noticed:

  • My headphones and speakers have some hissing on their own.
  • If I set Input Sources in Global Settings > Inputs to just Guitar or Guitar+Variax, then I only get some inherent hiss of my speakers (it's present with Master on 0, it doesn't influence level of the hiss).
  • If I set Input Sources to Guitar + MIC or Guitar + AUX, even if I don't have a mike plugged in or anything connected to AUX/CD, turning up Master makes hissing a bit louder.

So if there's some POD's hiss, it's AUX / MIC that are adding it.

Dunno what to think about this right now, I guess when my new headphones will arrive, they will give me more answers.

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1 hour ago, JohannDaart said:
  • If I set Input Sources to Guitar + MIC or Guitar + AUX, even if I don't have a mike plugged in or anything connected to AUX/CD, turning up Master makes hissing a bit louder.

So if there's some POD's hiss, it's AUX / MIC that are adding it.

Dunno what to think about this right now

 

When the mic source is selected, the mic's analog preamp operates, and like all analog preamps produces some hiss noise in proportion to the setting of the mic gain/level control  (there is a dedicated physical knob on the rear panel).

 

All POD inputs are analog except Variax which is digital and as such produces no noise at all.

 

If multiple analog inputs are selected/enabled the hiss noise increases accordingly, and even more if input2 is set to SAME (thus duplicating what input1 does).

 

It is all quite logical.

 

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After spending more time with the unit and getting more into tweaking, now I discovered this fizzy, sizzling sound in every clean-ish patch while notes are sustaining...

 

It sounds a bit like a speaker membrane that was cut with razor ;)

 

I thought that it might be a headphone issue, but I've recorded it and it's present on recording too:

https://www3.zippyshare.com/v/59eluW1m/file.html

 

At first I thought it's this "AC hum", but it's definitely something unwanted, any remedies for it? :(

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50 minutes ago, JohannDaart said:

After spending more time with the unit and getting more into tweaking, now I discovered this fizzy, sizzling sound in every clean-ish patch while notes are sustaining...

 

It sounds a bit like a speaker membrane that was cut with razor ;)

 

I thought that it might be a headphone issue, but I've recorded it and it's present on recording too:

https://www3.zippyshare.com/v/59eluW1m/file.html

 

At first I thought it's this "AC hum", but it's definitely something unwanted, any remedies for it? :(

 

Your audio clip link doesn't work..

 

However, try 2 things:

1) set input2 to Variax to get a standard single (instead of doubled) input signal to avoid overloading the models inputs..

2) set the HUM parameter to zero to get rid of the emulated dissonant ghost notes phenomenon

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40 minutes ago, hurghanico said:

 

Your audio clip link doesn't work..

 

However, try 2 things:

1) set input2 to Variax to get a standard single (instead of doubled) input signal to avoid overloading the models inputs..

2) set the HUM parameter to zero to get rid of the emulated dissonant ghost notes phenomenon

 

As usual man, thanks for help!

 

(it's possible that you are running some kind of ad block, or your browser is blocking the player, but the mp3 can be downloaded too)

 

I started digging on the forum again and...

 

It turns out that this fizz/sizzle is not a bug, not unit's defect but... A feature of POD HD modeling.

There were other topics about it before:

 

This guy presented clips that display the same sizzle as my clip ;)

This sizzle turns out to be most prevalent while using edge of the breakup tones (the ones that I like the most haha).

 

Then I've found this topic:

 

Which sent me back again to Peter Hanmer tutorial, where he uses EQ to cut exactly this fizzy noise -> https://youtu.be/iJ9v7SCCt_c?t=263

 

So I guess I'm making some kind of progress with learning this unit / my ears, because I struggled to hear what he meant the first and second time I've watched his tutorial ;)

 

I will also experiment with cab DEP's again, maybe the patches I was using had DEP Master at 100%, I will check if lowering it will reduce this sizzling.

Personally I don't think this artificial sizzle was a worthy addition by Line 6, it just forces EQ block to get rid of it...

 

In semi-clean tones this fizz stands out far too much. I suspect that it's not as noticeable while playing POD through a guitar cab / FRFR on loud volumes. It just sticks out on detailed IEM's or monitor headphones...

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@hurghanico @pianoguyy

 

Now all I'm hearing in every patch is this fizz and sizzle...

 

I get that some of this sizzle is inherent to real amps and it's more hearable in amp sims.

I started to think that I have a bad cable or I'm clipping the input.

 

Lowering volume on guitar or using pad switch doesn't solve it.

Lowering high cut in Global EQ even down to 7k doesn't eliminate this too.

HUM parameter at 0 - fizz still present.

My Input 1 is set to Guitar, Input 2 to AUX.

 

Writing this up I thought on another possibility... What if the POD is ok, settings are ok, cable is ok... But my guitar setup is off due to change of temps recently? I'm actually getting a lot of fret buzz... I think that I need to add some neck relief and rise the action.

Nope, after eliminating every possible buzz on the fretboard, the excessive fizz is still there :(

So maybe bad pot / cable?

 

Could you guys listen to it and check if it should be that excessive?

I'm using bridge humbucker on a Les Paul.

I've attached the sample and the patch used for it.

PODHD_Fizz.mp3 BLACKFACE - Amp on edge of break-up.5xe

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4 hours ago, JohannDaart said:

I don't mean noise floor anymore, rather the fizz in decaying notes/chords. Those legendary "squirrels", but I think in my case it sounds a bit like something is clipping or buzzing.

 

If the "squirrels" subtle crackling noise on notes decay is what's annoying you play with the BIAS and SAG parameters, I don't remember now at which value zero or 100 they kill the squirrels (IIRC if one kills at zero the other one kills at 100), easy try... doing so the sound IMO becomes more fake/plastic but surely much cleaner.. personally I prefer some dirt..

 

Your audio clip doesn't seem excessively squirrell-ish to me (but using headphones I guess it could be more apparent)..

However your patch inputs on my editor look like guitar/guitar (ie doubled input) that you are using with the hot signal of a LP

 

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I think this sizzle on the clip I've attached to my previous post seems to be a bit too much, so because of my lack of experience with multi fx and lack of comparison, I'm worried if my unit is defective or is it normal... What do you guys think?

 

I've checked my guitar signal while on empty patch - it's not clipping, not fizzy, clean as a bell. So my cable is ok and my guitar is not clipping the input.

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5 minutes ago, JohannDaart said:

So my cable is ok and my guitar is not clipping the input.

 

Even if your unprocessed signal is not clipping the device input it doesn't necessarily mean that the same signal (if doubled or too strong) could not overload the amp model virtual input.

 

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On 11/15/2020 at 9:16 PM, hurghanico said:

1) set input2 to Variax to get a standard single (instead of doubled) input signal to avoid overloading the models inputs..

 

I've double checked it and I was using global preset for inputs, that was Guitar + AUX. On patch it was Input 1: Guitar / Input 2: Guitar, just as you said.

I compared the two, and yep, when the Input 1: Guitar / Input 2: Guitar is in effect, the sound gets distorted more.

I think if my global setting was in effect, it wasn't distorting, but I will keep it mind, thanks for the tip!

 

Rising Bias reduces squirrels, but it seems that it reduces gain a bit at the same time. If I turn gain up more to compensate, squirrels appear again ;)

 

I'm a bit bummed out by this squirrels, but I really want to make this unit work for me...

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1 hour ago, joel_brown said:

I lowered my input impedance and that took some sizzle out for me.  Your mileage may vary.  It depends on your pickups, effects chain, and amp model.

 

Without using impedance options, do you find your unit similarly fizzy? 

 

Thanks for responding :)

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Amazon finally delivered my AKG K240's!

 

After some testing:

- They are really comfortable, but I feel that they are clamping my head a bit too lightly. I have a narrow head so that's my problem, I guess no K712 Pro for me in the future, I will probably check Beyerdynamic's higher models ;)

- 3m cable is long enough to comfortably play while standing up, so that's awesome.

- Playing on IEMs wasn't a pleasant experience, because their sound was too direct. Playing on K240's feels a bit like listening to the speakers that are further away and that really feels great for guitar modeler application. It's probably because their open backs and size of the cups.

- My IEM's have a bit more precise bass. But they have artificial V-shape response. K240 make the POD sound a bit muddier, but because they are flat, that's probably closer to what POD really generates, so K240's are a better guide for creating patches.

 

- They completely "solved" the problem of noise floor that initiated this topic, this quiet hiss. It's not present anymore. I guess it was a problem of high sensitivity of my IEM's. I don't even think they picked up analog A/D converters hiss, because hiss was present at Master on 0. 

- Hiss / Noise floor on my speakers (old hi fi stereo) depends on Master volume. But using basic technique of setting source volume at max without clipping while reducing volume on speakers eliminates any hiss by improving SNR. I thought those speakers are unusable, because I felt they were clipping even while using lower Master... Nope. What I thought was clipping, was this fizz/buzz/ squirrels of my POD.

 

- Because K240's are rather detailed... High frequency buzz/fizz is present and very prominent on them too.

 

I'm still not sure if that's defective unit or that's how POD HD really should sound.

This buzzing really stands out when I'm using some modulation effect like flanger on a slightly dirty tone. While notes are decaying, t feels like the base of the tone gets modulated with the effect, but the buzz is poping out of it without being affected by the modulation.

Could the power supply be faulty? I've plugged to other outlets in my apartment and it doesn't change a thing.

 

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On 11/18/2020 at 3:08 PM, JohannDaart said:

I'm still not sure if that's defective unit or that's how POD HD really should sound.

This buzzing really stands out when I'm using some modulation effect like flanger on a slightly dirty tone. While notes are decaying, t feels like the base of the tone gets modulated with the effect, but the buzz is poping out of it without being affected by the modulation.

Could the power supply be faulty? I've plugged to other outlets in my apartment and it doesn't change a thing.

 

You don't have a defective unit, your POD sounds as it should.

 

Whether you like squirrels or not I'm sorry to inform you that to some extent they are part of the game.

There are ways to try to minimize them if necessary, some of which have already been suggested before.

(A further suggestion I can add is that squirrels are not present in all amp models in equal measure, so choosing a different model may be another solution).

 

Even upgrading to a newer and more expensive modeler will not necessarily solve your problem; try to google "tube amp crackle on note decays" and you will understand what I'm talking about.

 

The following reading copied and pasted here from the Fractalaudio (Axe FX) wiki could be useful:

 

(about crackling sound through FRFR) "That's what amps sound like. Go put an amp in an isolation room with an SM57 on it. Listen in the control room. You'll hear the same thing. You don't hear it as much using a real guitar cab because the high frequencies are rolled off which softens the sound.

"You're probably just hearing "tube crackle". This is most noticeable when letting chords ring out as the sound decays. It's more noticeable with FRFR because of the extended high frequency response of near-field IRs. Tube crackle occurs when playing more than one note typically. When you play multiple notes (as in a chord or even a diad) the amplitude "bounces" around as the multiple notes reinforce each other or cancel each other. The result is an envelope that is not uniform. The peaks of the waveform clip but the troughs do not. This causes a crackling sound when you get on the edge of distortion because the points at which distortion occurs are far enough apart in time to be audile."

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3 hours ago, hurghanico said:

You don't have a defective unit, your POD sounds as it should.

 

Whether you like squirrels or not I'm sorry to inform you that to some extent they are part of the game.

 

Yep, after listening to isolated recordings of real tube amps, I've realized that they have squirrels too. Sometimes a lot of them.

Again, thinking my POD was defective was my inexperience with units like POD and tube amps. 

 

Obviously HD and even Helix have those squirrels pronounced in a bit harsher way than in real amps or Fractal/Kemper, but squirrels are everywhere, I just wasn't aware of them until I started tweaking HD. They are part of the game, just as you've said.

 

3 hours ago, hurghanico said:

There are ways to try to minimize them if necessary, some of which have already been suggested before.

(A further suggestion I can add is that squirrels are not present in all amp models in equal measure, so choosing a different model may be another solution).

 

I'm slowly getting my tweaking skill up.

Compared to POD 2.0 or Yamaha THR10, where the sounds are ready after selected amp model, HD forces tweaking. "Here's a block of sound, now chisel it". 

 

Actually HD made me learn a lot about EQ's and guitar sound in general. Maybe in the last weeks I wasn't playing much, because I was learning HD and stuff about EQ's, guitar frequencies etc, but I feel that knowledge is useful and it will help me in the future to get the sounds I want on every other amp/effect/device a lot faster, because of deeper understanding of how it all works.

 

As usual, thank you for help @hurghanico :)

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part of the issue with "realism"  (in addition to it being annoying) is the fact that most people don't know what 'real' is. 

Meaning - when was the last time you turned a 1965 100-watt Marshall 4x12 up to 10, in your bedroom while sitting 3 feet away with your ear at speaker level. 

 

Yet, with modeling tech, this is essentially what you are doing. 

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2 hours ago, pianoguyy said:

part of the issue with "realism"  (in addition to it being annoying) is the fact that most people don't know what 'real' is. 

 

That's true.

 

2 hours ago, pianoguyy said:

Meaning - when was the last time you turned a 1965 100-watt Marshall 4x12 up to 10, in your bedroom while sitting 3 feet away with your ear at speaker level.

 

This one I think opens up a can of worms ;)

  • Line 6 squirrels are harsher and stand out more than those in real amps.
  • Yep, real Marshalls have big time squirrels too, when cranked up. In HD/Helix, they are especially present and prominent in edge of the breakup tones, that are not exactly "cranked". Then you could say "if you want edge of the breakup tone, lower down Master, because Master at 10 and Gain on breakup produces squirrels on real amps too". Yep. But in HD simulation, when you lower down Master, squirrels go away, but your tone stops breaking up. Then when you add more Gain to compensate, squirrel squad attacks again ;) On Line 6 simulation, amount of squirrels is dependent on the overall amount of distortion (pre + power).
  • Increasing Bias reduces squirrels (duh). But it changes the tonality of the amp.
  • Changing microphone smooths them out too, but again, it changes the tone. If I want a bright tone I need a mic that does it, picking a mic that darkens the tone and makes squirrels smoother is a sacrifice.
  • Then there's the question "even if squirrels are realistic and present in real amps, are they desired?" In real life, producers are aiming for a setup that eliminates harsh stuff like squirrels. They have tools in the studio to do it with real mics, distances, positioning etc. Modelers aim to be a solution for live PA and easy recording. By default, I think modelers aim to reduce the difficulty. HD wasn't easy by design (block of sound to chisel instead of a tone ready to go out of the box) + it's cab/mic modeling isn't sufficient. Making HD work is kind of an art. MeamBobbo guide proves it. Helix proves it, the biggest advancement in tone from HD was the cab/mic modeling.

Anyway, I'm really happy with HD's cleans, crunches and hi gains. I will save breakups for later, I think they are hardest tones to learn how to make sound nice on HD.

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