HX stomp send output, balanced mono line feed?

[ossianott]

Hello, I've realised that global EQ only affects the main outputs, hence I'm thinking about using this to tweak a FRFR cabinet for playing/dialing in sounds and use the Send output to a mixing desk/FOH which is uneffected by the global EQ. I've been trying to set this up with a Send block, both mono and stereo, and would like it preferably to be mono balanced line signal. I have not figured out if it's possible tho or if it always will be unbalanced stereo? When I hardwire the signal chain to the SEND L/R output in HX edit (bottom row as opposed to upper row to MAIN L/R) I have the option to choose "Mono" which gave me the impression that this might be possible, but there are no such choice when using a Send L/R block, is this "mono" alternative balanced or unbalanced? Is the best method for this to use a instrument signal from the send to a DI box to the mixing desk?

 

When I use a TRS cable from the send output into a balanced line in, and set both send L/R to line signal on the stomp the signal is very low for some reason.

 

Sorry if this is covered somewhere, I've looked in the manual but could not find any clues.

 

Thanks!

[zappazapper]

AFAIK, the Send jack itself is stereo unbalanced, regardless of the signal being sent to it. When you select "mono" in the output settings, it likely sums the stereo signal to a mono signal and sends that mono signal to both sides of the stereo jack. There's nothing in the manual that suggests that it flips the polarity of one side to make it a balanced mono signal.

 

1 hour ago, ossianott said:

When I use a TRS cable from the send output into a balanced line in, and set both send L/R to line signal on the stomp the signal is very low for some reason.

That's probably the best proof you're going to get that it's always going to be a stereo unbalanced signal coming from the Send, even if the Helix has summed the two sides to mono. As your balanced mono line in expects one side to be the same signal but with the polarity flipped, it will flip the polarity of that side itself and sum both sides, and since the HX doesn't flip the polarity to make it a balanced mono signal in the first place, what your balanced mono line in is doing is cancelling out the signal.

 

Your best bet, if you're really that worried about picking up interference, is to use a short TS cable to connect to a DI box, then an XLR to the stage box/mixer.

[ossianott]

1 hour ago, zappazapper said:

AFAIK, the Send jack itself is stereo unbalanced, regardless of the signal being sent to it. When you select "mono" in the output settings, it likely sums the stereo signal to a mono signal and sends that mono signal to both sides of the stereo jack. There's nothing in the manual that suggests that it flips the polarity of one side to make it a balanced mono signal.

 

That's probably the best proof you're going to get that it's always going to be a stereo unbalanced signal coming from the Send, even if the Helix has summed the two sides to mono. As your balanced mono line in expects one side to be the same signal but with the polarity flipped, it will flip the polarity of that side itself and sum both sides, and since the HX doesn't flip the polarity to make it a balanced mono signal in the first place, what your balanced mono line in is doing is cancelling out the signal.

 

Your best bet, if you're really that worried about picking up interference, is to use a short TS cable to connect to a DI box, then an XLR to the stage box/mixer.

 

Thanks so much for your help zappazapper!

[rd2rk]

The SENDS are UNBALANCED, and are NOT affected by the Global EQ.

Since you're not after a stereo signal, create the split using a MONO Block, and/or set the 3/4 out on Path B to MONO.

Use a TS cable from the SEND jack to a DI to FOH. If you're doing your own mixing from the stage, it (using a DI) might not even matter. I'd call it "best practice" to use a DI.

Use a TS cable to your monitor/FRFR or, if you're worried about noise or loss of tone, and the FRFR has a balanced input, use TRS.

Set the SEND level to whatever works best for FOH.

 

Set up as above, I did not notice the level drop that you described. Changing the "SEND/Return L" level worked as expected, lower for INST, higher for LINE.

 

[zappazapper]

1 minute ago, rd2rk said:

The SENDS are UNBALANCED, and are NOT affected by the Global EQ.

That's what he said.

3 hours ago, ossianott said:

Hello, I've realised that global EQ only affects the main outputs, hence I'm thinking about using this to tweak a FRFR cabinet for playing/dialing in sounds and use the Send output to a mixing desk/FOH which is uneffected by the global EQ.

 

[rd2rk]

6 minutes ago, zappazapper said:

That's what he said.

 

 

He said a lot. I summed the details.  It's all good.

[ossianott]

I've tried playing through a JBL eon15 g2 tonight swapping between MAIN line out to the line in of the EON, and then thru the SEND instrument level > Radial JDI into the XLR microphone preamp of the JBL eon (It's got a preamp built in).

 

The sound was pretty similar, but through the JDI it was quite a bit more intrusive in the high mids. Might be the preamp of the EON that is of subpar quality but I've tried another recording chain at home and found the DI solution to be somewhat lacking compared to the main outs there aswell. I've read about helix through DI boxes and people claim it should sound exactly the same so it might be something with the rest of the chain that messes the sound up a little. Thanks for your help and suggestions guys! Will experiment more with this.

[rd2rk]

4 minutes ago, ossianott said:

I've read about helix through DI boxes and people claim it should sound exactly the same so it might be something with the rest of the chain that messes the sound up a little. Thanks for your help and suggestions guys! Will experiment more with this.

 

The reason there's more than one DI at more than one price point is that they DON'T all sound the same. Same with pre-amps on mixing boards and Audio Interfaces.

Pro Sound people go round and round about this stuff. Wanna go crazy? Check out the Pro Sound/Recording threads on GearSlutz. OTOH, if you can get past all the vitriol, there's a lot of knowledgeable, experienced people over there. 

 

I have a couple of $29 passive Pyle PDC21 boxes. To my stage volume modified ears, they sound flat (no coloration or noise). YMMV, but Amazon has a great returns policy.....

[zappazapper]

13 minutes ago, ossianott said:

I've tried playing through a JBL eon15 g2 tonight swapping between MAIN line out to the line in of the EON, and then thru the SEND instrument level > Radial JDI into the XLR microphone preamp of the JBL eon (It's got a preamp built in).

 

The sound was pretty similar, but through the JDI it was quite a bit more intrusive in the high mids. Might be the preamp of the EON that is of subpar quality but I've tried another recording chain at home and found the DI solution to be somewhat lacking compared to the main outs there aswell. I've read about helix through DI boxes and people claim it should sound exactly the same so it might be something with the rest of the chain that messes the sound up a little. Thanks for your help and suggestions guys! Will experiment more with this.

A "preamp" typically will come with some coloring compared to a line input, which would typically be designed to be as transparent as possible. You might want to test the MAIN outputs into the JDI/preamp to see if you get the same "intrusive high mids". Then you'll know it's either the preamp or the JDI.

[ossianott]

50 minutes ago, zappazapper said:

A "preamp" typically will come with some coloring compared to a line input, which would typically be designed to be as transparent as possible. You might want to test the MAIN outputs into the JDI/preamp to see if you get the same "intrusive high mids". Then you'll know it's either the preamp or the JDI.

I tried unbalanced line out from the SEND also, and it sounded just like the main out balanced send afaik, so it ought to be the jdi of preamp. As reputable as the jdi is I'm more inclined to blame the preamp but who knows, I will definitely troubleshoot this and hope I can find the same signal integrity going the DI route. I'll keep posting here if I find something interesting if it's of interest.

[ossianott]

1 hour ago, rd2rk said:

 

The reason there's more than one DI at more than one price point is that they DON'T all sound the same. Same with pre-amps on mixing boards and Audio Interfaces.

Pro Sound people go round and round about this stuff. Wanna go crazy? Check out the Pro Sound/Recording threads on GearSlutz. OTOH, if you can get past all the vitriol, there's a lot of knowledgeable, experienced people over there. 

 

I have a couple of $29 passive Pyle PDC21 boxes. To my stage volume modified ears, they sound flat (no coloration or noise). YMMV, but Amazon has a great returns policy.....

Yeah I know I'm a faithful gearsluts attendee aswell :) Thanks! I hope the JDI will be good enough for this due to it's price and reputation, still as of now something sounds a little bit off compared to line out. I'll hope I find a remedy after some more troubleshooting!