HX STOMP Expandable DSP+switching system

[Santisandoval89]

I know that Line 6 is going to send a bunch of hooligans to my house to explode a nuclear bomb on my face. BUUUUUUT. In a more constructive fashion or as a suggestion, does anyone else think that the most sought after product in the pedal market would be a DSP expansion for an HX STOMP? and potentially for all the helix family. 

I know that I'm posting this just one day after the release of 3.0 firmware, I know. I know that Line 6 is going to say "told ya", I know. But I think that they also knew that this would happen, that customers were going to complain and ask for more DSP power. And if we have in mind that product development is a partnership between sellers and customers, maybe this is more like an opportunity for them.

If they come out with something that involves the expansion of DSP power and a switching system in the same box, like a satellite (think of it like some sort of strymon's zuma/ojai system, where you can always keep on expanding your power supply according to your needs), people are gonna go crazy for it. 

 

Some of you are going to say "If you want more DSP and switching options, why don't you get a full helix floor/rack?" and the answer is that the whole point of a HX stomp is that is MODULAR. It can be the core of your rig and also a part of it. This is perfect for musicians like me: I spend half my time traveling and half my time at recordings/rehearsals. And having two or three different rigs is just not an option for now, so a modular rig works the best for me. When I travel, I pack the HX stomp in my guitar case and that's it. But when I'm recording/reherasing I pack a bigger rig. 

 

That said, when I heard that the 3.0 firmware was going to have new synth-pitch blocks, I sold my whammy, a EHX freeze and a Walrus audio Luminary, because I though that I could do pretty much everything with this new update. I was partially right, because of the DSP limitations. The "Poly Sustain" block (Damn, it sounds way better than the freeze!) eats almost all the DSP and I can't even use my IRs. And that happens with more blocks as well. So.. what's the whole point of this great improvement if I can't use it in a chain? I now have a freeze boxed inside a HX stomp and I can't do pretty much nothing more. 

 

For Line 6: note that I'm not complaining about the use of the 8 blocks, I'm just pointing out that I can't even use two blocks if they are DSP heavy enough.

 

So back to the constructive mood: does anyone know if DSP expanding is a possibility? Does anyone else think that it would be a best selling product? 

 

Thanks for reading this long drama and sorry about my english, I'm not a native speaker.

[csantost]

As much as I would like to see that as well, we have to be conscious that its pretty rare to find situations in which a product will cater to 100% of of all its users needs and wishes.

I remember to have read somewhere on TGP a similar discussion in which it was mentioned that hardware changes, such as this would require, would be very difficult to achieve just given the logistics and support centers required, never mind the actual physical composition of the device.

Probably it would be easier to have new Stomp with the additional DSP rather than modding the existing one (this is my opinion only, based on the limited knowledge I have of the product).

[cruisinon2]

I don't see how it would be possible to add DSP without performing surgery on everybody's device...and I doubt that would be logistically feasible, or cost effective. And even if it were, there's certainly no way that the average end user would be able to do it themselves...hell, every single firmware update is torpedoed by folks who don't/won't/can't read instructions, and f*ck up their units as a result... and the only prerequisites for completing that task successfully are literacy and the ability to click a mouse without falling off your chair. 

 

"Helix 2", or whatever this product line's eventual successor will be, will no doubt have more horsepower... that's practically a given. But we all bought what we bought. You can expect evolution via firmware updates for a while as long as they're still selling enough units to offset development costs, but the hardware is what it is.

 

[datacommando]

On 11/20/2020 at 8:54 PM, Santisandoval89 said:

DSP expansion for an HX STOMP?

 

It already exists in the form of Helix, LT and Rack units.

 

”customers were going to complain and ask for more DSP power.”

 

Could it be that you decided to buy the wrong piece of kit?

 

Signed by a hooligan, and I will be round later!

[Nylander88]

I know I got the right piece of gear, I have 8 blocks and feel like I have too much!

[zappazapper]

There is a modular DSP expansion for the HX STOMP: another HX STOMP.

It's the right size, is fully programmable with MIDI, has a few built in switches and loads of connectivity options. I can't imagine a better way to get more DSP in a compact package.

[Santisandoval89]

Come on, guys!!! So many negative answers! some of you (Like datacommando) didn't even read the whole post. You have to admit that you came to this thread because you also want a DSP expansion or at least you find the topic interesting.

 

Zappazapper, you have a point. BUT still, a new HX stomp costs 600 bucks and is a whole thing with a screen, power supply, etc. My idea is more like a small switching system that boosts the DSP. Have you ever seen a UAD satellite? that unit that processes audio plugins and leaves your computer's memory free? Something like that, but with switches. 

 

[zappazapper]

Fair enough, but there's fantasy and there's reality. There's been no such product mentioned, and even if they liked your idea it would take them years before you'd see it in stores. For $600 you can have more DSP and switches now. 

[datacommando]

5 hours ago, Santisandoval89 said:

Come on, guys!!! So many negative answers! some of you (Like datacommando) didn't even read the whole post.

 

Sadly - I did read the whole post and gave my personal opinion, which didn’t agree with yours - along with many others. So, when you say things such as “Come on, guys!!! So many negative answers!” maybe you should re-read your whole post and seriously consider what you are asking for. In terms of cost of manufacturing and marketing alone - it would never get started, simply because Line 6 already has products to do the job. 
 

You even brush aside the comment from  “zappazapper” about the simplest solution of adding a second HX Stomp. Line 6 deliberately made the HXFX and Stomp for those who didn’t require all the extra processing, and those who do, invest in the other boxes.
 

There is some information around here, or you could even use Google, to find just how much R&D time went into producing what we have now. Then there are the things that are already in development by Line 6, that we have no knowledge of. I don’t really see them dropping everything to take on your idea, for a possibly, very  limited market.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

[DunedinDragon]

6 hours ago, Santisandoval89 said:

Come on, guys!!! So many negative answers! some of you (Like datacommando) didn't even read the whole post. You have to admit that you came to this thread because you also want a DSP expansion or at least you find the topic interesting.

 

Zappazapper, you have a point. BUT still, a new HX stomp costs 600 bucks and is a whole thing with a screen, power supply, etc. My idea is more like a small switching system that boosts the DSP. Have you ever seen a UAD satellite? that unit that processes audio plugins and leaves your computer's memory free? Something like that, but with switches. 

 

 

Actually, I came to this post because I was astounded by the absurdity of the suggestion.  You may as well suggest that mobile phone manufacturers come up with some plug in doohicky that will allow your existing phone to be 5G capable because that's what you're fundamentally asking for.  A DSP chip isn't a plug and play architecture, it's a core component and the circuitry is built around it just like the CPU in your computer, or the engine in your car.

More importantly you decided to buy the limited version of the Helix rather than the full version and now you want someone to fix your bad decision for you.  If you really want to fix the problem, sell or trade in your stomp and get a full sized Helix.  Problem solved.

[datacommando]

45 minutes ago, DunedinDragon said:

If you really want to fix the problem, sell or trade in your stomp and get a full sized Helix.  Problem solved.

 
Take care DD, this guy will say you failed to read his entire post and you are hitting him with negative vibes, when in fact it is a flawed concept.

[Santisandoval89]

Maybe you guys are right. Maybe I just have to wait until the next generation of helix to get more DSP power. 

 

But I just want to say that I din't get the wrong product, I don't want a full Helix. Datacommando and DunedinDragon: I need something modular and not as big as a helix, cause I travel a lot to play in different citties, and usually they don't pay me enough to send a huge pile of gear in the plane and I have to pack small stuff like the HX stomp. 

With the new effects like Poly Sustain, I was happy cause I though that I would be able to use some of those effects that I wasn't carrying for those venues, and that were present in the board that I use for the gigs in my city. But now that I see that they are so DSP intensive, I'm practically at the same place. This doesn't have to do with the 8 blocks, as sometimes I can't even use 3 at the same time (poly sustain and amp and a heavy IR, for example). 

 

DunedinDragon, there are actually many modular cellphones. And you can update them to newer technologies without changing or wasting them. Check the fairphone, puzzlehpone and even some major brand like motorola have their own models. But that's different from what I'm thinking. Instead of replacing inner-core parts of the unit, it would be something more like an add-on. Something like the UAD satellite that I mentioned before. Or something like this 

 

[Santisandoval89]

Or something like this

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01AZC4NHS?tag=offthebroiler-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1&keywords=External Processor

[DunedinDragon]

51 minutes ago, Santisandoval89 said:

 

DunedinDragon, there are actually many modular cellphones. And you can update them to newer technologies without changing or wasting them. Check the fairphone, puzzlehpone and even some major brand like motorola have their own models. But that's different from what I'm thinking. Instead of replacing inner-core parts of the unit, it would be something more like an add-on. Something like the UAD satellite that I mentioned before. Or something like this 

 

 

Just to clarify for you, it's physically impossible for anything that "plugs in" to a device other than possibly plugging directly into an internal bus on a circuit board to operate as quickly or as efficiently as an internal chip built into a circuit regardless of what marketing fluff you might read.  It's the difference between moving at the speed of an electron or moving at the speed of a communications processor....that's not even a close race.  In this case we're talking about a specialized math processor that's required to do high density mathematical transformations so quickly that the latency is imperceptible to a human being.  That's why it can only live within a circuit board and can't afford to endure the latency caused by even the fastest external communications device.

Bottom line.  There's marketing...and then there's engineering.  In the end, engineering is always the true limit.

[cruisinon2]

1 hour ago, Santisandoval89 said:

Maybe you guys are right. Maybe I just have to wait until the next generation of helix to get more DSP power. 

 

 

 

Not necessarily... there's always divine intervention. ;) Other than that, hurry up and wait....

[Nylander88]

1 hour ago, Santisandoval89 said:

Maybe you guys are right. Maybe I just have to wait until the next generation of helix to get more DSP power. 

 

But I just want to say that I din't get the wrong product, I don't want a full Helix. Datacommando and DunedinDragon: I need something modular and not as big as a helix, cause I travel a lot to play in different citties, and usually they don't pay me enough to send a huge pile of gear in the plane and I have to pack small stuff like the HX stomp. 

With the new effects like Poly Sustain, I was happy cause I though that I would be able to use some of those effects that I wasn't carrying for those venues, and that were present in the board that I use for the gigs in my city. But now that I see that they are so DSP intensive, I'm practically at the same place. This doesn't have to do with the 8 blocks, as sometimes I can't even use 3 at the same time (poly sustain and amp and a heavy IR, for example). 

 

DunedinDragon, there are actually many modular cellphones. And you can update them to newer technologies without changing or wasting them. Check the fairphone, puzzlehpone and even some major brand like motorola have their own models. But that's different from what I'm thinking. Instead of replacing inner-core parts of the unit, it would be something more like an add-on. Something like the UAD satellite that I mentioned before. Or something like this 

 

Cool, Have you ever thought of using a midi switcher with like 10 switches and a laptop with Helix Native? this may be a better solution, Hx stomp could live on a big board, and for fly dates you could do something like this with helix native which is only 99$ if you have the stomp.

 

 

 

 

 

[zappazapper]

Re: $600

Think about it. The Stomp is one DSP chip compared to two in the Floor/Rack/LT. Any DSP expansion is going to require another DSP chip. So another DSP chip and some switches. It's already a Stomp. OK so you want it to just connect digitally without having to patch it in and hook up MIDI. The problem for L6 is that the customer base for such a product is limited to owners of a Stomp. And it's going to cost $600 anyway because why would they sell you the same DSP chip and the same switches for less than what it would cost you to buy another Stomp? There's lots of things I want too (VST Wrapper?!) but at some point we have to accept that they are a for-profit company and some things just aren't good moves for L6 from that perspective. I just don't see them making this, ever. But like I said, a second Stomp or an HX Effects would kinda be the closest thing to what you're talking about, except that they aren't connected at the "OS level" or whatever. They would communicate via MIDI. Sonically it would achieve the exact same thing. Workflow would, of course, be a little different, but nothing that complicated. 

[Santisandoval89]

Nylander88 and zappazaper, thanks a lot for the constructive answers.

zappazapper, I know that you have an important point here. You're right and maybe that's the best option for me in the current market. But I just wanted to know if maybe someone had a similiar idea or question like mine.

Just to keep on developing the idea, I think that the unit wouldn't have to cost necessarily $600 bucks. Why? because an HX stomp has a color screen and a bunch of circuitry dedicated to ins and outs. But again, I'm just rambling around with this idea. 

 

Nylander88, that's a really good idea. I actually tried it once in a gig but wasn't happy with the results. I'm sure that this was because of the gear that I had (not a really nice laptop and interface). But tell me, have you ever tried it live? how was it?

[codamedia]

21 hours ago, Santisandoval89 said:

My idea is more like a small switching system that boosts the DSP. Have you ever seen a UAD satellite? that unit that processes audio plugins and leaves your computer's memory free? Something like that, but with switches. 

 

Great idea but I see three problems. 

1. The UAD Satellite costs more than an HX Stomp, and still doesn't have all the features you want it to have. How do you expect Line 6 to pull it off at a price point that would make more sense than just adding a 2nd Stomp or HX Effects?
2. The UAD Satellite is Thunderbolt... which is much quicker than USB2
3. In regards to USB, are you familiar with HOSTS vs DEVICES?
   • Hosts talk to devices
   • Devices can answer back to a host
   • A device cannot talk to another device, unless it is facilitated by a HOST playing the middle man, and often with added software. 

My point? The Helix/Stomp is a device.... it cannot HOST anything on it's own, not even a memory stick! 

[zappazapper]

Just now, Santisandoval89 said:

Just to keep on developing the idea, I think that the unit wouldn't have to cost necessarily $600 bucks. Why? because an HX stomp has a color screen and a bunch of circuitry dedicated to ins and outs. But again, I'm just rambling around with this idea. 

But that's what I'm saying. Regardless of the manufacturing cost, why would L6 give you the option to spend less money to get the same processing power as the Floor? Especially since they've already made 5 different products in the line for different budgets?

 

By the way, the only "modular" system that ever had any widespread success was the IBM- compatible PC, and that's because they released their patents (I'm paraphrasing...  I'm sure what actually happened is much more nuanced and complex), and because the market for a general purpose computer is potentially every human on earth. Purpose-built, proprietary devices that are only even remotely interesting to a small fraction of MUSICIANS, let alone people in general, are not ideal for modular designs, as much as I can see the theoretical advantages. 

[Santisandoval89]

zappazapper, thanks again for the debate. I find your answers -and the ones that some other guys sent as well- very useful and I think I'm getting close to an answer or to get a round idea out of this. 

I'm not saying that this will add the same processing power as the floor. But even if it did, the stomp still wouldn't have all the options that the floor has (connectivity, a lot of I/Os, different signal paths, 12 switches, an expression pedal, giant screen, etc.). A DSP accelerator would only let the stomp to be capable of handling with more than two of the most intensive DSP effects. With the latest firmware update, the stomp is not capable of doing it. 

 

But according to what codamedia said, my idea is not possible because of the HOST/DEVICE situation. So if this is true, I'm completely dissarmed (don't know if this expression works in English, sorry). 

I still have to know if theres some sort of a solution for me different than buying another stomp. I can solve the external switching easily (I do actually have an external unit to switch banks), but do you guys think that it's possible to expand the DSP even if it involves installing a chip inside the stomp? 

 

I know that I would have to have access to the software installation and stuff like that. But the question is, do you think that it is possible?

 

 

[DunedinDragon]

19 minutes ago, Santisandoval89 said:

but do you guys think that it's possible to expand the DSP even if it involves installing a chip inside the stomp? 

 

 

Not without redesigning and replacing the entire existing circuit board...so what would be the point?  As my previous post discussed...DSP chips are not plug and play pieces.  Just manufacture a new unit...maybe call it a Helix LT?  Oh wait...we already have one of those!!!!

[Santisandoval89]

On 11/23/2020 at 11:02 PM, DunedinDragon said:

As my previous post discussed...DSP chips are not plug and play pieces.  Just manufacture a new unit...maybe call it a Helix LT?  Oh wait...we already have one of those!!!!

 

As all of my posts in this thread discussed... I will not get a Helix LT because that's not the type of product that I need. It's too big. Oh wait... I've said that before!!!!

 

But it's ok, I get the point. I'll get back my old pedals and wait for the next generation of helix to come. 

[csantost]

I'm not sure where you are based off but with the deals going on this week I'm sure you can find a Stomp for much less than 600, this assuming you would be ok carrying 2 Stomps and the only issue keeping you from that is the cost (also there are always used ones around going for much less). With two stomps and with the recently implemented command center I'm pretty sure you can get very creative on the control side of things..

 

Just food for thought..

 

[Nylander88]

On 11/23/2020 at 6:06 PM, Santisandoval89 said:

Nylander88 and zappazaper, thanks a lot for the constructive answers.

zappazapper, I know that you have an important point here. You're right and maybe that's the best option for me in the current market. But I just wanted to know if maybe someone had a similiar idea or question like mine.

Just to keep on developing the idea, I think that the unit wouldn't have to cost necessarily $600 bucks. Why? because an HX stomp has a color screen and a bunch of circuitry dedicated to ins and outs. But again, I'm just rambling around with this idea. 

 

Nylander88, that's a really good idea. I actually tried it once in a gig but wasn't happy with the results. I'm sure that this was because of the gear that I had (not a really nice laptop and interface). But tell me, have you ever tried it live? how was it?

I've never tried it live, but I have used a lot of plugins and feel some of the sounds are very good! I use my stomp on a pedal board, and I am going to buy a MC8 for smaller gigs if I cant bring a board, I'm a rhythm guitarist and don't need a whole lot of effects.

For me a travel board with the stomp would be:

1. Red squeeze

2  Scream 808

3. Phaser

4. Chorus

5 Cali rect

6. 4x 12 v30

7. Transistor delay

8. Plate Verb

 

That's all I need for a gig, If i get the MC8 from morning star I'll be able to turn off/on the 5 effects that would need switching, the other three would be dedicated to make the amp cleaner, Make the delay mix and decay larger, along with the final butten to do whatever i need it to do, the stomp would then act as the Tap/Tuner, and bank up and down, I also think you could do a lot with this sort of set up, If it it takes to much DSP then make another preset but swapping out effects to fit the need of the next song. I have three differnet "Board" patches, all within the same idea just with slightly different effects to fit each song, some with only four blocks because of DSP usage.. Tip: I also use everything in mono to save DSP.

 

[StaccoP2P]

As others have commented, the modular expansion you're looking for is HX Effects:

1. More blocks
2. More DSP
3. More footswitches
4. More expression outs and loops.

Use Stomp for your amp + all post FX and Effects for all pre preamp (say that three times fast) effects (wahs, filters and synths, drives...)

[HonestOpinion]

Lots of great points made already in this thread and it is easy to see why this topic inspires discussion. Personally I am an advocate for a modular approach to modeling.

 

Modelers are essentially computers with specialized hardware optimized for live and studio use.  This discussion reminds me a bit of the naysaying regarding touchscreens, plugins, multiple loops, headphone amps, etc..  Name a feature that now exists on a modeler and you will find a thousand users who find it useless and therefor declare it shouldn't or will never happen. I think a modular approach to modeling is coming. How widely it will be adopted and sell I have no idea but fundamentally the ability to add memory/storage and additional or more powerful processors(DSP) as they becomes available makes perfect sense to me and is already a viable and well established approach in the computer world.

 

When it comes to modelers people have no problem with another parallel to computers, namely the ability to add peripherals. That's exactly what the option to add an expression pedal or a MIDI controller is. Why not extend this to onboard hardware as well. Daughterboards, motherboards, larger faster memory, improved processing. Let us swap them out or add to them. Why not? Why not offer the ability to expand the total number of blocks, particularly DSP intensive ones?  Add preset or IR capacity, add additional speed or gapless preset switching with multiple routes with lots of blocks.

 

The bones/platform of a Helix for example, with its extensive I/'O, loops, and switching options are already so extensive and well thought out. I think it would be a desirable extension and future proofing of these devices to be able to improve and accelerate their processing and storage capacity over time. Just as in the case of computers some users will never crack the case to add faster/additional memory or a new CPU and motherboard/daughterboard but others, particularly "power users", will.

 

Native allows us to add memory and processing power to our computer for studio use. Why not have this capability on the device as well.

 

I doubt we will see modular capability come to the existing line of HX devices but I have no doubt that Line6 or some other company will offer this in the future.