Power Cabs?

[Wondo100]

I know this question has been asked a lot and I have not read through all of the possible scenarios, but I am wondering if I should go with a Power Cab.

 

My set up currently is that I go from the Helix with a 7CM into two Hughes and Kettner Grandmeisters for stereo and sometimes wet/dry mixes. (These H&K heads each go in to their own 2x12 with V30s) With this set up, I can use the H&K preamps or some preamps or amps in the Helix. (Had some great help from some stellar people here on the forum getting that set up to work great). 

 

I also will run XLR out to my studio monitors (Yamaha HS7) to play along with music or for recording. I like what I am getting with going in to the monitors especially now that I have installed various IRs. 

 

I did have two Power cab+ here a few months back and could not get the stereo thing going on successfully with these two cabs. I gave up because I was running out of return time to send them back and had to make a decision. However, I am reconsidering this option again. I know I could probably have figured out how to get these to work, although some here said the 212 was easier to work with than two 112s. 

 

The reason I am giving this thought, is that running in 7CM takes a lot of work where not only do I have to program the Helix, but also have to program two other amps and lots of connections and cables. I think running the Helix into Powercabs with the L6 Link cable is just a very neat and easy set up. 

 

My question is, would it be worth it to get either two 112 Powercab+ for stereo or a 212 Powercab+? Or, to just run in to my studio monitors, and maybe rely less heavily on the grandmeisters? Or, maybe get two really good FRFR cabs? The other option would be to run the Helix in to a stereo power amp like a Matrix 800 into my two 2x12 V30s.

 

I guess what I am really going after is that with all of the internal routing capabilities in the Helix, going out to two separate amps for stereo has become a lot of work. When I keep everything internally in the Helix with IRs, I am getting some really good tones without all that added gear and the added risks of tube amps which already failed on me once at a gig (tube went and took a capacitor on the board with it, had to go into the shop). 

 

I guess I should add that I am not playing out that much anymore. I was in a Rush cover band for years then my own original band of Prog Rock stuff. We released two CDs and have since gone our own ways. I have a friend who owns an Ambient label and has asked me to record some stuff for him and there is the prospect of playing that stuff out live in small to medium venues. My studio is kind of small (12x12 with standard ceilings).  two PC112+ would fit nicely but might need to remove the H&Ks if I want more room. PCs would have a nice 5-6 ft spread. 

 

I know there is a lot to consider here and would appreciate any insights people could offer. 

 

 

[rd2rk]

Guitar cabs will always sound different than "FRFR". They will always sound exactly like what they are, require more volume to sound their best, require mic'ing for recording and (usually) weigh more.

 

If you like the added tonal flexibility of IRs AND the AITR option of the Powercab speaker sims, the Powercabs will be a better deal than PA type "FRFR" solutions. The coax speaker design blends the HF/LF components in a way that sounds much more AITR even with IRs than the separate component design of the "FRFR" alternatives, which are designed for large room/long throw applications. This is especially true in a small space such as the studio you described.

 

I wish I knew someone who had a PC212. I'd love to compare, and see how it sounds with the new "Stereo Imager" effect in v3.0. The physical spread possible with two PC112s is nice if all you do is play at home, but it's pretty useless on stage. If you have a bad back, two 32lb cabs vs one 48lb cab could be a consideration, but I'm blessed that at my advanced age I can still deadlift 300lbs for reps, so not an issue for me. I'm guessing that your 2x12 guitar cabs each weigh nearly as much as the PC212, which has neodymium magnets.

 

Of course, then there's the money thing. Being semi-retired, I don't have much. But if I sell the PC112+, the FRFR112 and the Egnater Tweaker that I never use anymore, that would pay for most of a PC212..... 

 

OH G.A.S.! I HATE YOU! Why did you post this? Now I'm thinking again, usually a bad thing!

[Wondo100]

Hi rd2rk, 

Thanks for putting this in perspective. You had helped me out with some stuff before on here. So, I thank you. Running the 7CM is great, but honestly just way to many moving parts for it all to come together. I am liking just working with the Helix more these days. It is a deep dive sometimes, but overall the accessibility and the ease of use is just great and the tones are just getting better. I may pull the trigger on the PC+. I would like to hear what others think, although I know it is a matter of preference. 

 

[Wondo100]

2 hours ago, rd2rk said:

Guitar cabs will always sound different than "FRFR". They will always sound exactly like what they are, require more volume to sound their best, require mic'ing for recording and (usually) weigh more.

 

If you like the added tonal flexibility of IRs AND the AITR option of the Powercab speaker sims, the Powercabs will be a better deal than PA type "FRFR" solutions. The coax speaker design blends the HF/LF components in a way that sounds much more AITR even with IRs than the separate component design of the "FRFR" alternatives, which are designed for large room/long throw applications. This is especially true in a small space such as the studio you described.

 

I wish I knew someone who had a PC212. I'd love to compare, and see how it sounds with the new "Stereo Imager" effect in v3.0. The physical spread possible with two PC112s is nice if all you do is play at home, but it's pretty useless on stage. If you have a bad back, two 32lb cabs vs one 48lb cab could be a consideration, but I'm blessed that at my advanced age I can still deadlift 300lbs for reps, so not an issue for me. I'm guessing that your 2x12 guitar cabs each weigh nearly as much as the PC212, which has neodymium magnets.

 

Of course, then there's the money thing. Being semi-retired, I don't have much. But if I sell the PC112+, the FRFR112 and the Egnater Tweaker that I never use anymore, that would pay for most of a PC212..... 

 

OH G.A.S.! I HATE YOU! Why did you post this? Now I'm thinking again, usually a bad thing!

You are going to get rid of the PC 112+?

[rd2rk]

22 minutes ago, Wondo100 said:

You are going to get rid of the PC 112+?

 

Probably not. $1400 is a lot, considering that I live in an apartment and haven't played in a band in years.

BUT...if I saw a nice used one on CL for $8-900, I fear I'd lose control and jump all over it!

I'm actually more a bassist than guitarist and, for that purpose, the FRFR112 sounds WAY better than the PC112+.

Says the angel on my right shoulder.

But the PC212 would sound better for BOTH says the devil on my left.

No powercabs AT ALL on CL, so I'm safe for now.....

There's a couple of people on TGP who have, and really like, the PC212. I've posted asking if they'e tried the new "Stereo Imager" effect with it.

Waiting to hear what they say.

Sometimes I HATE having money in the bank. What good is it when I could have NEW TOYS?!? 

 

[tmingle]

3 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

Probably not. $1400 is a lot, considering that I live in an apartment and haven't played in a band in years.

BUT...if I saw a nice used one on CL for $8-900, I fear I'd lose control and jump all over it!

I'm actually more a bassist than guitarist and, for that purpose, the FRFR112 sounds WAY better than the PC112+.

Says the angel on my right shoulder.

But the PC212 would sound better for BOTH says the devil on my left.

No powercabs AT ALL on CL, so I'm safe for now.....

There's a couple of people on TGP who have, and really like, the PC212. I've posted asking if they'e tried the new "Stereo Imager" effect with it.

Waiting to hear what they say.

Sometimes I HATE having money in the bank. What good is it when I could have NEW TOYS?!? 

 

Where are you located?  I think i'm going to sell my PC112+.  2 months old.

[rd2rk]

I'm in Denver but, thanks anyway, if I decide to cut loose with my savings it'll be for a PC212.

If you're in Colorado you can probably get top $ for it, nobody's got them in the stores, and I've only ever seen two on CL, including the one I bought a year ago for $475.

Of course, that could be because nobody wants to go all out digital around here.

We often have bears, cougars, elk and deer running loose in the streets......

OTOH, when I sold my HD500X, it sold the same day I listed it, so who knows.

It's been so long since I've been out to see a band I don't have any idea who's using what these days.

[DBCrocky]

I too am considering the PowerCab 212.  I like that I can run in stereo, which would lead to lots of fun patches.  I also like I can run acoustic models in my Variax into a flat PC212 program, instead of having to run those out to the PA with a seperate line.  I can even run the acoustic out of one speaker, and the electric out of the other.  And I've got two XLR's in the back for the sound guy, so no worries about mics and micing.  It's hard to give up on my Boogie Mark I Reissue, though!

 

But one cool thing with the PowerCab 212, you only need one L6 link cable to carry both stereo channels and control signals so Helix can control the PC212.

[codamedia]

On 11/23/2020 at 7:00 AM, Wondo100 said:

My question is, would it be worth it to get either two 112 Powercab+ for stereo or a 212 Powercab+? Or, to just run in to my studio monitors,

 

IMO... your HS7 Studio Monitors in a 12x12 room is about as perfect a fit you will find. My studio room is about the same size, and I run the same size studio monitors. It's perfect for my needs. 

 

Live gigs or a practice room is a different story... given your options I would lean toward 2 x 112 Powercab+.

• Lighter to move around
• Better options for coverage and stereo spread
• They serve as a backup to each other. 

[OmniFace]

I've read this thread a couple times and I'm still not sure what the real question is regarding stereo...  lol

 

But since I own 2 PC212+ and a Helix and use stereo set ups I'll comment:

 

Stereo is the default when using L6 Link in this setup.  The patch has to have something obviously stereo going on to be useful though.  So a stereo mod, reverb, delay, etc, and no mono FX after.  If you're doing a 7CM, you'd presumably have a bit of work cut out for you to properly send each side to one amp properly.

 

I've messed around with the same stereo patches using a single PC212+ when I don't want to mess with setting up both at home.  The stereo field on the single PC212+ is really good IF you are in the middle and stand close to the amp.  As you move back, the stereo image starts to merge.  However, the PC212+ has an internal stereo setting to expand that to 200%, which I haven't tried.  That should hypothetically make it work better even further back.

 

---

 

Two PC112 would work very well for stereo.  You can space them on either side of the stage like I do, but they're small enough to fit nearly anywhere.  They're smaller and lighter to carry.  They're cheaper too.  BUT, they're a lot quieter as far as I know.  So if you're relying on them to provide stage volume, the 212 may be a better bet.  That said, I'd wager that most gigs are just using a (real) mic' on the cab, the PC212+'s mic sim output on the XLR (if using the speaker mode), or just the Helix IR (if using FRFR mode).

 

My bassist really appreciates having the second PC212+ on his side because he can tilt and control the volume independently of mine.  So we're never having to deal with the sound man's guitar mix to the stage.

 

---

 

IMO, the Stereo Imager in Helix 3.0 is probably the same effect in the PC212+.  It's probably just playing with the phase to expand the two signals.  But that's just an assumption.

 

My primary use of stereo in my setup is to use the Double Take.  I am usually using in-ear monitors, and the Double Take works awesome in headphones with a mix to make room for the vox and drums up the middle.  But, I usually run a mono output to my PC212+ for gigging because the audience doesn't care.  There's also phasing if the two sides of the signal are merged into mono. So, my patches are set up to add Double Take to the Digital outs as the last block, but no Double Take on the Analog Outs.  I was using the external Mimiq pedal for this, but the Helix FX is pretty much as good in practice.  I've tried Double Take with the physical cab sends and it's OK as long as the amps are far enough apart.  But when they're close together, or using a single PC212+, the signal begins to collapse to mono and the phasing becomes pretty obvious.

 

The Helix also sounds great.  I don't feel the need to have a real amp in the chain at all, and the ability to simplify my load out is pretty awesome.  I should qualify that I've never actually owned a real amp though.  The Line 6 stuff was just always way more affordable, versatile, and able to be used in places like an apartment and or headphones.