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ruperthawkes

Lexicon reverb?

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Hi,

this might be a contentious question but curious to get the communities thoughts on how the Helix can compare to a Lexicon reverb device like the MPX1 or PCM91 SPECIFICALLY when it comes to hall and bigger ambient wash type reverbs.

 

I appreciate that those Lexicon units are older and had dedicated hardware but have been playing with the cool Mod Verb technique (must find the original post/video) but In essence it’s a technique that means you can built a custom/more complex verb with the Helix that can closely approximate or even surpass the Lexicon verbs.

 

This is not intended to start a flame just very interested in verbs as have a Lexicon MPX1 and love the idea of a Lexicon PCM91 but also think the mod verb approach is pretty tasty too.


So a bit of an open ended question and not expecting an answer per se but more hoping for an open discussion.

 

thanks all 

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Lexicon reverbs are very unique... they had creative algorithms far beyond their years!
When you need/want that sound there are two ways to get it... 

  1. Easy Way: Use a Lexicon
  2. Not so Easy Way: Try combining a bunch of different products to see if they can sound like a Lexicon. 

IMO... With the Helix you have to move on to option #2. Figure out what makes a lexicon tick.... then combine a series/parallel combination of a few blocks and try to get close. 

 

I know, I'm really just sayin what you said in a different way. Sorry I can't be more help. With my project studio I own a Lexicon bundle... so I have never had the need to try coaxing it out of the Helix. I'm not sure where to even begin :) 

 

On a side note... Lexicons are often blamed for the "80's sound"... but IMO that is not fair. Calling a Lexicon dated would be like calling an AC30 or Plexi dated. Their usefulness does not expire when the decade of creation does!

 

In case it isn't clear.... I really like Lexicon Reverbs! Thanks for starting this thread... I'll be following! 

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12 hours ago, ruperthawkes said:

just very interested in verbs as have a Lexicon MPX1 and love the idea of a Lexicon PCM91


Hi,

 

Lexicon are excellent bits of kit, but have you ever come across a Quantec Room Simulator? It worked on the principal of not simply sound reflections bounced from the solid boundary of the room walls, but also how it interacted with the air in the space. They are astonishing, and if you can find an original, very expensive. They were launched in 1982 and competing with the likes of the (now) equally legendary AMS RMX16, Klark Technik DN780, Eventide SP2016, Ursa Major Space Station, Yamaha Rev 5 and 7 and, of course, the Lexicon 224.

 

You can still buy the 4th generation offshoot Quantec Yardstick, which  uses essentially the same algorithms and produces the same revered room simulation that has, arguably, never been surpassed. Although, having said that, a while back I found a FREE plugin that uses a similar idea of air inside the space. Not quite in the same league, but a interesting idea nonetheless.
 

Check out the freebie here:

https://u-he.com/products/protoverb/

 

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1 hour ago, datacommando said:


Hi,

 

Lexicon are excellent bits of kit, but have you ever come across a Quantec Room Simulator? It worked on the principal of not simply sound reflections bounced from the solid boundary of the room walls, but also how it interacted with the air in the space. They are astonishing, and if you can find an original, very expensive. They were launched in 1982 and competing with the likes of the (now) equally legendary AMS RMX16, Klark Technik DN780, Eventide SP2016, Ursa Major Space Station, Yamaha Rev 5 and 7 and, of course, the Lexicon 224.

 

You can still buy the 4th generation offshoot Quantec Yardstick, which  uses essentially the same algorithms and produces the same revered room simulation that has, arguably, never been surpassed. Although, having said that, a while back I found a FREE plugin that uses a similar idea of air inside the space. Not quite in the same league, but a interesting idea nonetheless.
 

Check out the freebie here:

https://u-he.com/products/protoverb/

 

 

Looks very interesting, installed but doesn't seem to appear in Logic :-(

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1 hour ago, ruperthawkes said:

 

Looks very interesting, installed but doesn't seem to appear in Logic :-(

 

That's very odd, I just opened it in Logic Pro X v10.4.4 and it works fine.

 

Sometimes you have to restart the mac for Logic to pick up on a new plug-in/

 

Does it show if you check the Logic Pro X > Preferences > Plug In Manager?

 

Oh, hum somedays are like that.

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16 hours ago, codamedia said:

Their usefulness does not expire when the decade of creation does!

 

 

 

But what if it's a joystick? ;)

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But, also, the OP's question was how do Helix reverbs compare to, say, a lexicon (a good lexicon)?

 

IMHO the verbs can be pretty darn good on the helix, but people have a certain dislike for the spring reverb on the helix.  Since I normally hated spring reverbs I haven't even bothered to try that much, but I'm sure it's true.

 

For halls etc, they are very good very convincing verbs though, imho.  They don't have the lush magical tails and high end of the better Lexicon verbs, because those algos are pretty legendary and also are still patented and owned by whoever owns lexicon now.  But, you won't find it too bad on the helix imho.

 

People complain about the verbs but from what I can tell it's guitarists complaining, not sound engineers.

 

I'm both, but lean towards sound engineer  when I'm editing the helix, and I've stumbled across some huge, long, wash verbs in the helix that are pretty astounding, really.

 

It's not the most amazing reverb machine out there, but to put lexicon in it's place a bit - the lexicon technology is roughly, what, 40 years old?  35 at least.  There's nothing, technically, that the ancient lexis could do that the helix can't do, patents and software ownership rights aside.

 

One side note: from what I have seen, helix software contains, MOSTLY, original reverb algos, not copies of famous reverbs (such as lexicon).  I made assumption earlier that this is due to legal restrictions, and it might be.  But it might not be, too.  It seems like it is sort of a line6 thing, really.  Rather than license or model other verbs, they've forever made their own verbs.  I think it's not all their own original reverb designs, but mostly is.

 

 

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17 hours ago, datacommando said:

 

Sometimes you have to restart the mac for Logic to pick up on a new plug In


yep that fixed it thanks.  It’s certainly an interesting plugin but not sure it’s really what I’m after, looking for nice washes etc for solo finger style/ambient stuff.   Will continue to tinker and thanks for the suggestion.

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I’ve found the Reverb’s on the Helix work best in a the method where you effectively build you own reverb.   So, add a split A/B then run a reverb, chorus, delay, reverb in the B path.   That was the chorus and delays only happen in the first reverb tails, then the last reverb blends it all together.   Also the Ambient Verb patch in the factory presets kinda works well if you turn on the first 4 ReverbS and run them in series!

 

The Helix has such flexibility and power that it is possible to dream up and try things out like making you own custom reverb from whatever takes your fancy.   Plus I don’t think the base verbs are that bad.
 

having said that there is something magical about the Lexicon algo so will keep a lookout for a PCM81 or more ideally PCM91.   Of course there is nothing to stop one using the Lexicon reverb and have you own chorus etc in the tails using the technique above.

 

Thanks for your input and hopefully this thread is useful for others.

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Someone hired in a Lexicon 480L for me on a mix a few years ago. Bringing it into Pro Tools, I was amazed at how good this ancient reverb sounded. Just bringing up a plate for vocals and a wood room for drums was magic.

 

I know this has been ported to plugins, but apparently a lot of the sound is to do with the analog converters on these units. I wish the sound could really be captured in the box.

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On 12/7/2020 at 8:49 PM, codamedia said:

When you need/want that sound there are two ways to get it... 

  1. Easy Way: Use a Lexicon
  2. Not so Easy Way: Try combining a bunch of different products to see if they can sound like a Lexicon. 

 

Just want to throw out a third option for getting the Lexicon sound.  (Let's call it easy way option 1b.)

 

Get a Digitech Polara pedal.  Digitech is owned by Harmon audio, who also owns Lexicon.  This pedal has true Lexicon algorithms in it.  It's out of production, so not super easy to find, but easier than searching for vintage gear.

 

I have one but I'm very seriously considering selling it.  I don't need the "Lexicon" sound for anything specific.  I just got a HX Stomp & Helix Native bundle, and it has everything I need and so much more.

 

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If I recall, two predecessors of the Polara, the Digitech Hardwire RV7 and the Hardwire Supernatural Ambient Reverb pedals also have Lexicon algos. A couple of years ago they could be had used for $100 or less on Reverb.com but now they go for $175-220+. The Polara used to go for $70-85 but now it's typically $120-150+.

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