For the life of me I can't get helix native to sound good. Any advice appreciated.

[cleanplanets]

Hi guys,

 

I have been trying out native for a few days, and just can't get it to sound good. I've played with all the settings in each block, added a York Friedman IR, dual amps, dual cabs, added a EQ etc etc etc. It just sounds thin, muzzy, and lifeless no matter what I do. i can brighten it up a bit with an EQ but it still sounds just harsh and lifeless.  I'm using the headphone jack on the Scarlett into my Sennheiser HD 650's.  I'm starting to think maybe its my interface? its a Scarlett 6I6 2nd gen. 

 

I'm basically ready to throw in the towel and just get an axe FX. too much messing around with native to get anything....unless im doing something seriously wrong? 

 

any obvious things I should check? thanks in advance for any input. 

[rd2rk]

There's nothing wrong with your interface.

 

You only THINK you've tried EVERYTHING - in a few days? Not likely.

 

Watch Jason Sadites' videos on getting good tone. Rhett Shul is another. There are many.

 

If, after watching videos by pros who know how to get good tones out of Helix/Native, it still doesn't work for you. get some other very expensive modeler that many A/B challenges have proven is indistinguishable from Helix when properly dialed in.

 

MAYBE you'll like it better. Or maybe you're just an analog kind of guy/gal.

 

Good Luck!

[willjrock]

1 hour ago, cleanplanets said:

Hi guys,

 

I have been trying out native for a few days, and just can't get it to sound good. I've played with all the settings in each block, added a York Friedman IR, dual amps, dual cabs, added a EQ etc etc etc. It just sounds thin, muzzy, and lifeless no matter what I do. i can brighten it up a bit with an EQ but it still sounds just harsh and lifeless.  I'm using the headphone jack on the Scarlett into my Sennheiser HD 650's.  I'm starting to think maybe its my interface? its a Scarlett 6I6 2nd gen. 

 

I'm basically ready to throw in the towel and just get an axe FX. too much messing around with native to get anything....unless im doing something seriously wrong? 

 

any obvious things I should check? thanks in advance for any input. 

Try using IRs. I dont use helix cabs at all. Some people find them useable but the majority dont like them. I wont use them at all. Ive been playing guitar for 35 years and used almost everything known to man and helix cabs are about the only thing i can say that i am unhappy with or am not able to dial a sound with that suits me. 

[phil_m]

Are you leaving the input into the Scarlett at unity gain? One of the most common mistakes I see is people boosting the input at the interface. Doing that tends to mess with the Helix modeling.

[codamedia]

41 minutes ago, phil_m said:

Are you leaving the input into the Scarlett at unity gain? One of the most common mistakes I see is people boosting the input at the interface. Doing that tends to mess with the Helix modeling.

 

^^^ this ^^^

 

Don't run the scarlett input too high... then set your Helix Native input slider so the input signal at the plugin is "roughly" -18db..... 

Anything -24 to -12 will be OK.... I'm just suggesting -18 since it's middle ground :) 

 

[phil_m]

26 minutes ago, codamedia said:

 

^^^ this ^^^

 

Don't run the scarlett input too high... then set your Helix Native input slider so the input signal at the plugin is "roughly" -18db..... 

Anything -24 to -12 will be OK.... I'm just suggesting -18 since it's middle ground :) 

 

I’d say there’s almost never any reason to adjust the Native input fader at all. Just let it alone. You want unity gain going into Native in most cases.

 

I think the main reason they added the input fader on Native was perhaps from dealing with non-guitar sources. There might be times when attenuating the input might be useful with hot pickups, too.

[amsdenj]

Did you use Focusrite Control to set the input to Inst? Is the Inst light lit and pad light off? If not, this could be your problem, your guitar would be seeing the wrong input impedance.

 

[cleanplanets]

Thanks guys. 

 

Yes the scarlet is set to instrument. I have the input gain knob on the scarlett turned all the way down. There is no clipping. 

 

Admittedly I have no idea what unity gain is, but my input gain is not too high. 

 

Does native have a global EQ like the hardware version? 

 

Also one thing I thought is, how can native have the same sound as the real helix when the hardware is unknown, and changing from one computer/interface to the next? Dosen't line 6 tout how the helix sounds so good because of all the special onboard chips, input signal processors specifically made for the helix etc etc etc? 

 

 

Anyway, I doubt that this current rig I have will perform anywhere near as good as a hardware based modeler like the axe ...... but I've been wrong before :P

 

also one thing I should say is that I have never been able to get a good sound with any of the software based VSTs which could point the finger at the whole scarlett setup. 

 

Any more tips on checking to make sure I'm at unity gain would be appreciated.  Thanks again everyone. 

[phil_m]

8 minutes ago, cleanplanets said:

 

Also one thing I thought is, how can native have the same sound as the real helix when the hardware is unknown, and changing from one computer/interface to the next? Dosen't line 6 tout how the helix sounds so good because of all the special onboard chips, input signal processors specifically made for the helix etc etc etc? 

Yep... If you want Native to sound *exactly* like the Helix hardware, you need to use the Helix hardware as the input source. You can record a dry track very easily with all the Helix hardware pieces, so this works very nicely.

 

That being said, a decent interface with the proper gain staging and input impedance should still sound good.

 

If you’re having trouble with all software modelers you’ve tried with the Scarlett, it very well could be the weak link.

[codamedia]

40 minutes ago, phil_m said:

I’d say there’s almost never any reason to adjust the Native input fader at all. Just let it alone. You want unity gain going into Native in most cases.

 

I would agree in the perfect world. But if your guitar is recorded too hot, or too quiet there is absolutely no harm in using the Native input level to adjust the input level accordingly. When playing through Helix Native.... of course, try to get the level right coming into the system. 

 

18 minutes ago, cleanplanets said:

Also one thing I thought is, how can native have the same sound as the real helix when the hardware is unknown, and changing from one computer/interface to the next? Dosen't line 6 tout how the helix sounds so good because of all the special onboard chips, input signal processors specifically made for the helix etc etc etc? 

 

I share my presets between the two all the time. When the guitar input is in spec (roughly -18 give or take a little) they sound pretty much identical. 

Sure, there might be a little tonal variance between interfaces... but it's minimal compared to other factors. IMO of course. 

 

[lou-kash]

16 hours ago, willjrock said:

the majority dont like them

 

I demand a recount! Or three! ;)

[rd2rk]

2 hours ago, lou-kash said:

 

I demand a recount! Or three! ;)

 

I saw dead people voting!

[amsdenj]

On 12/25/2020 at 7:44 PM, cleanplanets said:

Yes the scarlet is set to instrument. I have the input gain knob on the scarlett turned all the way down. There is no clipping. 

 

Admittedly I have no idea what unity gain is, but my input gain is not too high. 

 

Does native have a global EQ like the hardware version? 

 

Also one thing I thought is, how can native have the same sound as the real helix when the hardware is unknown, and changing from one computer/interface to the next? Dosen't line 6 tout how the helix sounds so good because of all the special onboard chips, input signal processors specifically made for the helix etc etc etc? 

 

 

Anyway, I doubt that this current rig I have will perform anywhere near as good as a hardware based modeler like the axe ...... but I've been wrong before :P

 

also one thing I should say is that I have never been able to get a good sound with any of the software based VSTs which could point the finger at the whole scarlett setup. 

 

Any more tips on checking to make sure I'm at unity gain would be appreciated.  Thanks again everyone. 

Input gain knob turned all the way down doesn't sound right, you could have really low input. Helix Native bocks are likely expecting more input than you are giving them. With the Helix Native input slider set to 0.0dB, you should turn up the Scarlett input until you're seeing the input meter close to mid scale for normal strumming, and no peaks going into the red for hard strumming.

 

Unity gain doesn't apply to inputs and outputs, only blocks that have and input, do some processing and produce an output. Unity gain is setting the level in these blocks so the volume is close to the same when the block bypass is turned off and on. This means the block is neither reducing or increasing the gain that much in the signal chain and will provide a reference starting point for gain staging your patch.

 

Helix Native does not have global EQ, you could provide that with an EQ plugin following Helix Native in your DAW or plugin host application.

 

An audio interface that has proper gain staging and matching input impedance should not change the tone of your guitar. So Helix Native should see a pretty similar guitar input regardless of the audio interface. Now different interfaces have different quality preamplifiers, and may not have high enough input impedance for guitar. But The Scarlett should be fine unless it's broken. Helix Floor does have a very good guitar input, with variable impedance, and lots of headroom, without the need for a gain control (other than the input pad switch which might be needed for some active pickups). But all of the tone processing is done in the Helix Native blocks and these are the same as the Helix Floor blocks.