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Klaim

[bug report] Fast preset changes leads to switches not working properly

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How To Reproduce (at least for me, I reproduced it 3 times):
0. I have Helix Floor, set to 3.01.0 (as shown in the video), plugged to the computer through USB and an audio interface via XLR cables. There is also some other cables but I suppose it's not important here. HX Edit 3.0 is on and connected to the Helix.
1. After startup, I quickly switch between presets from the FACTORY1 list (which I overwrote with the provided ones, so it's the new list that was given with 3.0). I switch using the 1 and 7 switches which are set  to PRESET mode.

2. At some point, the presets will stop changing even if I press the switches. At that point there are several things not working anymore.

I took a video when I reproduced the issue the 3rd time:


In this video, you will see the 3rd time I reproduced the problem (in a row). The 2 previous times were faster.
The problem appear around 1'18''.
After that point:
 - pressing the switches to change presets will not change presets;
 - pressing switches mapped to blocks will change the blocks (not sure if they do it as intended by the preset, but it looks like it's the case);
 - pressing switches mapped to blocks do not change the light of the switches: a switch on can 'have it's light dimmed, and vice versa - basically the lights will not change anymore at all (the lights don't blink, it's the video capture doing that);
 - pressing the mode button will not display the snapshots in the top row (that's how I setup my Helix at the moment);
 - using foot with sockets instead of shoes doesnt seem to change a thing;
 

The first 2 times it happened on the Rabea Lead presets, but this time it happened in another preset, so not sure if the content of presets plays a role or not.
Not sure either if the speed of changing presets changes the probability to hit this issue.


 

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11 minutes ago, phil_m said:

I suggest you don’t do that... :-)

 

Well, it's certain that I wont do that in a live show XD  (assuming it's not a random bug when switching presets)
And it's easy to avoid.

However I found this when I was trying to find a preset that had the right sound (I had background music and was improvising).
Also I think I did that a lot in the past without problem (and I was doing that a lot with a Zoom G3X before, as I am still quite a beginner in sounds).

Looks like this issue is easy to reproduce?

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I accelerated my car to 100mph then slammed on the brakes until the car stopped then repeated this over and over. After a while the engine blew up.

I replaced the engine and repeated the test. This time after a while the car wouldn't stop anymore. I ran into the back of a truck.

When I got out of my coma I reported this bug to the car's mfr, but so far have yet to hear back.....

How in the world did this POS car ever pass QC????

 

I think I'll take up guitar.....

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7 minutes ago, Klaim said:

 

Well, it's certain that I wont do that in a live show XD  (assuming it's not a random bug when switching presets)
And it's easy to avoid.

However I found this when I was trying to find a preset that had the right sound (I had background music and was improvising).
Also I think I did that a lot in the past without problem (and I was doing that a lot with a Zoom G3X before, as I am still quite a beginner in sounds).

Looks like this issue is easy to reproduce?


It might be a bug, or it might just be an issue of the DSP not being able to keep up with the changes. If you’re wanting to jump from a preset in one bank to one in another quickly, I think you’d be better off having FS1 and FS7 set to Bank Up/Down rather than Preset Up/Down. Than you don’t have to scroll through all the intermediate presets.

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10 hours ago, Klaim said:

At that point there are several things not working anymore.


And you are surprised by this?

 

Not entirely sure if this qualifies as a bug - or abuse.

 

At least you only used one foot - two really would be overkill.

 

 

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9 hours ago, rd2rk said:

I accelerated my car to 100mph then slammed on the brakes until the car stopped then repeated this over and over. After a while the engine blew up.

I replaced the engine and repeated the test. This time after a while the car wouldn't stop anymore. I ran into the back of a truck.

When I got out of my coma I reported this bug to the car's mfr, but so far have yet to hear back.....

How in the world did this POS car ever pass QC????

 

I think I'll take up guitar.....


That's quite a bad analogy.


Changing a preset is a basic operation, like turning the wheel. Turning the wheel left and right very quickly should not make the wheel block suddenly, right?
 

Also, I a programmer, it's obvious that the issue is a software bug. I don't see the point in trying to make "me" the issue.
 

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9 hours ago, phil_m said:


It might be a bug, or it might just be an issue of the DSP not being able to keep up with the changes. If you’re wanting to jump from a preset in one bank to one in another quickly, I think you’d be better off having FS1 and FS7 set to Bank Up/Down rather than Preset Up/Down. Than you don’t have to scroll through all the intermediate presets.

 

Yeah thanks, I do know about the alternatives. Though I got there by simply trying presets quickly with my foot, it's not a big problem, but it means I can "quickly try presets", which is surprising.
 

It's necessarily a bug. If it was "DSP not being able to keep up" there would be glitchs or something, not "switches not working anymore".

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2 minutes ago, datacommando said:


And you are surprised by this?

 

Not entirely sure if this qualifies as a bug - or abuse.

 

At least you only used one foot - two really would be overkill.

 

 

 

You do realize I reached that point in normal daily use, simply looking for a sound?

Of course I'm surprised, it should never break for such simple thing.

Of course it's not abuse, switching presets is a basic operation.

 

 

Seriously people, what's wrong with you all? You see your hardware brick after basic usage and that's necessarily your fault? O__o

 

 

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To be clear: I'm not looking for a workaround or anything like that, it's not a big issue in live, it's an issue mainly at home trying stuffs. I know there are other ways to switch between presets (I didn't check yet if they block the unit too).

I'm not looking for "help" (or whatever twisted viewpoint you might have on broken software).

I posted to report the issue because that's clearly a software failure and it's easy to reproduce. For a programmer that's maybe half the problem solved (though here it involves concurrency so it's probably not that easy).

That's a bug, devs should be aware if they are not already.

 

I'm happy with my unit, I'm not complaining.

edit> I put the info in an issue ticket, I suppose it will be more useful to the devs there than here.

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It does look like to me that you're just doing it too fast for the hardware/software to keep up. How long have you had  your Helix? If it's been awhile, is this something that has started since the new update? It appears that you recently aquired your Helix. I'd be curious as to how fast you have to change presets for it to happen. two per second, three per second. If it did it consistently at a certain speed then I would be more convinced that the hardware/software can't keep up. Although I'm already pretty convinced that it's true. Not sure there is a user answer for this.

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49 minutes ago, brue58ski said:

It does look like to me that you're just doing it too fast for the hardware/software to keep up. How long have you had  your Helix? If it's been awhile, is this something that has started since the new update? It appears that you recently aquired your Helix. I'd be curious as to how fast you have to change presets for it to happen. two per second, three per second. If it did it consistently at a certain speed then I would be more convinced that the hardware/software can't keep up. Although I'm already pretty convinced that it's true. Not sure there is a user answer for this.

 

  • I had the Helix for almost 2 years, so no your assumption is incorrect, but I can see how you would have guessed this; I'm not a power user but I've used it regularly, like almost daily, for production and live (well, more like preparing for live this year :P); I also use it a lot to explore (guitar) sound.
  • So far I couldn't confirm if speed plays a role in this. If my memory is correct, I wasnt doing it fast the first time (because I was strumming between each preset change) but this would have to be confirmed, I'll try when I have a minute;
  • About if it appeared before the patch: I did the same thing several time since I had the Helix and didn't hit that issue (also note that pressing quickly switches is a basic hardware test that's usually done in factory, it's not special and should never "brick" the unit - so I assume it's due to a software change). However that doesnt mean that it wasn't there before the patch(es) to 3.0(1), I can't completely confirm that because it might be due to other factors - for example it took me less than 30 seconds to brick the thing the 2 first times I reproduced this bug, so maybe I was "lucky" before the update. Though the update was probably a condition to get this, I suppose.
  • I'm not looking for an "answer" though, just reporting a problem that can occur. It's fine if the devs says it's low priority or something because it's not a big issue and its easy to not hit (I think). Though note that in my "short" xp with it, that's not the first bug I found, I reported some because they could have happened live too, which is a bigger problem (for when we'll be able to do live shows again lol).

 

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3 hours ago, Klaim said:


That's quite a bad analogy.


Changing a preset is a basic operation, like turning the wheel. Turning the wheel left and right very quickly should not make the wheel block suddenly, right?
 

Also, I a programmer, it's obvious that the issue is a software bug. I don't see the point in trying to make "me" the issue.
 

 

It wasn't intended as a serious analogy, it was a play on doing something silly until it hurts.

 

Turning the wheel rapidly back and forth while driving fast could cause the car to flip.

 

To be serious, as a programmer you should know that while a procedure may look instantaneous to a human, it actually takes time. Feed most any system the same procedure repeatedly without a programmed wait time between executions and you can cause problems. It takes time to unload a preset and then more time to load a new one.

 

AND, if they added a wait time between preset changes, more users would complain about slow preset changes!

 

 

 

 

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If you try hard enough you can break anything.  If this is normally happening at home when you're searching for something, use the preset dial rather than the buttons and I doubt it will replicate.  Alternatively use HX Edit to select the preset.

Although Line 6 may document this as a bug, that's only a single consideration.  The impact and potential frequency of occurrence of the bug will determine where it sits in their bug priority list.  I'm guessing not very high.

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5 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

It wasn't intended as a serious analogy, it was a play on doing something silly until it hurts.

 

Turning the wheel rapidly back and forth while driving fast could cause the car to flip.

 

That's mainly why I pointed that nobody would do that "in a live show". But okay, no problem.

 

Quote

To be serious, as a programmer you should know that while a procedure may look instantaneous to a human, it actually takes time. Feed most any system the same procedure repeatedly without a programmed wait time between executions and you can cause problems. It takes time to unload a preset and then more time to load a new one.

 

AND, if they added a wait time between preset changes, more users would complain about slow preset changes!

 

 

Indeed it makes sense that 
 - it takes time to do ... anything really through software;
 - here there is concurrency involved so it's not necessarily trivial, but they do need to make the system as responsive as possible, so I agree with your points;

But the issue here, is totally besides the point you are making: a system being slown down by some usage is one thing; making the system unusable (basically broken) is definitely a bug, however you reach that point (assuming just pressing buttons).
 

For example I've worked with humanoid robots, which are naturally highly concurrent. It can happen that some programming or some human usage will slow them down (or just some specific reactions) which can be an experience problem, maybe to be solved, maybe not, depends. But anything that render the whole robot stuck in no-reaction, in some ways, have to be a showstopper. Though, the less probable the issue trigger happen, the less priority is given to the issue.

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2 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

If you try hard enough you can break anything. 

I would not qualify pressing switches designed for that as "hard enough" ...

As pointed before, that's also a test they have to do to be able to sell units anyway.

 

It would be different if I had put some coffea on it, or made it fall in some way, but here it's just pressing switches which are designed for... being pressed. (and the related software)

 

2 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

If this is normally happening at home when you're searching for something, use the preset dial rather than the buttons and I doubt it will replicate.  Alternatively use HX Edit to select the preset.

 

Again (sorry, don't take it negatively, I'm just summarizing what I pointed before):
 - I'm not looking for alternate solution, I already know them, but thanks anyway :) ;

 - I had the guitar in my hands to be able to strum between each preset when I discovered the issue (so I was not specially fast as I was strumming between each preset), you can't go efficiently with the dials when doing this. When I'm tweaking presets I already use HX Edit a lot, that's probably why I didn't find this issue earlier.

 

 

2 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:


Although Line 6 may document this as a bug, that's only a single consideration.  The impact and potential frequency of occurrence of the bug will determine where it sits in their bug priority list.  I'm guessing not very high.

 

Indeed, that's why I wonder if anyone around can reproduce this? Even slowly?

Also I'm not considering this as a too big issue, so, as I pointed before, that's fine if they put it as low priority. Though I suspect it's still a problem they will have to fix as it's still blocking the unit from working beyond the preset it's stuck with. I'll need to investigate more for more details.

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2 hours ago, Klaim said:

 

Indeed, that's why I wonder if anyone around can reproduce this? Even slowly?

Also I'm not considering this as a too big issue, so, as I pointed before, that's fine if they put it as low priority. Though I suspect it's still a problem they will have to fix as it's still blocking the unit from working beyond the preset it's stuck with. I'll need to investigate more for more details.

 

I can't say I've run into this particular issue even though every week I go through something relatively similar when I'm doing the final gain staging of my presets for the weekend performances, and I've been doing it for several years without incident including using the current FW release.  But again, I'm selecting the preset (using the footswitch) playing it for a few seconds to check volume and signal levels on my mixing board (possibly making some minor adjustments on the preset) then going to the next preset until i've gone through all the presets for the show.  It's not super fast, but I'm done in a couple of minutes usually.

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On 12/31/2020 at 2:12 PM, Klaim said:

Indeed, that's why I wonder if anyone around can reproduce this? Even slowly?

Also I'm not considering this as a too big issue, so, as I pointed before, that's fine if they put it as low priority. Though I suspect it's still a problem they will have to fix as it's still blocking the unit from working beyond the preset it's stuck with. I'll need to investigate more for more details.

 

Thank you for posting this, and it sucks to see snarky replies instead of actual help.  Rapid preset changes is not the only way this occurs.  I also have the Floor and it happened even when I first turned it on (I bought the unit used thru a major online shop, and still had the protective film on the displays) and started clicking thru all the presets to get a taste of all the tones, moving on to the next after a few strums, maybe 2-5 seconds between changes at the fastest.  Then it would completely brick before I could get thru the first factory setlist.  Nothing would work.  Not a single button, knob, footswitch, even sending the sound to my headphones ... nothing until I powered down and back up.  After going thru this a few times, I guessed it was because I had overwhelmed it by cycling thru too many presets.  Wrong!

 

By that time, I found a couple fav presets I could practice a few songs with, switching once or twice during a song.  This worked fine for about 45min, then the whole unit bricked just as it had before.  After attempting this several times, I noticed it continued to occur near the 45min mark.  I had searched around the bug reports within the past month and saw a similar post that also hinted this was a known problem, bricking with normal use after a certain time window.  People suggested perhaps it was due to a corrupt preset and that reloading a backup or a factory reset could possibly work (which it did, at least temporarily, for that person).  I did a factory reset, and I still run into the same issue.  In fact, the only time I have played for longer than 45min on it without it bricking is by staying on the same preset.  After that time window, if I change the preset, it bricks.  Every time.

 

I sure hope they figure this one out, because I can't imagine playing live with this thing someday if it's going to cut out in the middle of a set.

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@mprater76 Oh wow that's interesting, thanks for reporting that!
So far I didn't get any feedback from Line6, I tried to ping them in the ticket but still no feedback. I don't know if they are working on it.

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