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HX Stomp and Load Box issues


borz666
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Hi guys, wondering if you can help. I have an HX stomp and I also use a Suhr Reactive IR. I would like to inject my valve amps into the helix. 
This has been successful thus far in this arrangement:

 

Guitar>Amp>ReactiveLoad>HX input>Computer.

 

This works great, I tend to use the unfiltered output of the Reactive load and use an IR block in the HX. But what I want to do now is use some of the HX’s fx in front of the amp as well. 
 

So I hook up like this:

 

Guit>HX input>HX send>Amp input>ReactiveLoad>Line out of RL>ReturnL HX>HX out stereo>Computer. 
 

Now when I use it in this arrangement it’s unusable. I get this hideous feedback / screeching sound. I’ve tried the setting the loop at instrument and line level with no joy at all. 
 

Any ideas??

 

TIA

 

Chris

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Connect the amp using the 4cm method. Take the Line Out from the RL to a second Helix Return on a parallel path with the IR and a separate Output Block and send that to the computer.

 

Guitar>HX IN>Send 1>Amp In>Amp FX Send>HX Return 1>Path A>HX Out L/Mono>Amp FX Return

RL Line Out>HX Return 2 on Path B with IR>Path B Output Block set to USB 3/4 or 5/6>Computer

At the Path B A/B Split Pan the signal hard 100% Path A so that no signal enters Path B at that point 

The only signal on Path B comes from the RL

 

This assumes that you're monitoring your playing through a cab and using the IR for recording only with the Track Monitor (Input Echo) OFF.

 

Demo preset attached

 

 

borz666.hlx

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Thanks for the reply and the patch. That’s very kind. I’m using a super lead so it doesn’t have an fx loop. And I’m not using a cabinet. It’s for recording my heads Direct to my computer. In a way I’m trying to replace the model with a real amp.

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In that case, the RL acts as the loop. See attached. I have the pre amp FX before the split, but they can also go after since no Path A signal is going to Path B.

 

There's other ways too, but the Demo preset is just a simple example of the principle. The main idea is the the signal from the RL is independent of the signal to the amp, and the post amp FX and IR are between the Return from the RL and the output to the computer. You don't even need the IR, you can use IRs in ITB.

 

Guitar>HX Input>A/B Split 100% Path A>Path A>1/4" L/Mono Out>Amp Input>RL Line Out>HX Return L/Mono on Path B>Path B Output Send L/Mono>Computer.

 

Attached is a further refinement on the previous attachment to reflect what you're asking for.

 

Please delete your post in the other thread, as your requirements are different from his.

 

borz666C.hlx

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  • 3 weeks later...

"Rd2k, I haven't tried that patch yet (too busy home schooling the kids) , but I'm not using the HX as an audio interface. I use a Focusrite. I'm goin out of my HX stomp main outputs into channel 3-4 of my Audio Interface. So I looked at that last patch you sent me but it seems after the send you're injecting the signal back earlier in the path??

Not sure how thats going to work"

 

See my previous post for a new version and instructions. 

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Ah OK i see what you're doing, but this is for live too. I want to be mono before the AMP+Reactive load, then place stereo loops going into the Mixer/PA/Interface.

I've seen people do exactly this on youtube etc but i cant get rid of this hideous whistle....

Ground loop maybe??

 

Tried this patch with your cabling method. Still feedback/howls

 

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Are you familiar with the concept of "Moving the Goal Posts"?

 

The attached preset works like this:

 

Guitar>HXS Input L/Mono>Pre Amp FX>HXS FX Loop Send L>Amp Input>RL Line Out>HXS FX Loop Return L/Mono>HXS Cab/Stereo FX>HXS L/R  Outputs>FOH/Interface

 

You may have already figured this out, I've lost track.

borz666D.hlx

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Hi, I'm having a similar issue with different equipment; so rather than make a new thread I was hoping I could jump in here and confirm what I need to do.

 

I'm using an HX Stomp, OD pedal, PRS MT 15, and a Harley Benton PA-100 Power Attenuator. The aim is to use the OD pedal and MT 15 as replacements for OD and amp blocks in the HX Stomp as follows:

Guitar > HX Stomp (effects send) > OD Pedal > MT 15 > Power Attenuator > HX Stomp (effects return L)

 

The HX Stomp is set up with a really simple patch that I figure may be incorrect:

 

Main L/R in > FX Loop (I'm assuming this should just go through OD pedal and amp) > IR > Main LR out

 

I'm getting similar feedback as described, to the point the amp's electronics are audibly squealing concerningly loudly. I'm not plugged into a DAW for the USB 1/2 and Output 1/2 feedback as described in another recent thread.

 

Would I need to either buy a DI box or alternative loadbox to isolate the ground? Am I doing something incorrect with the patch?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

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3 hours ago, drby said:

Hi, I'm having a similar issue with different equipment; so rather than make a new thread I was hoping I could jump in here and confirm what I need to do.

 

I'm using an HX Stomp, OD pedal, PRS MT 15, and a Harley Benton PA-100 Power Attenuator. The aim is to use the OD pedal and MT 15 as replacements for OD and amp blocks in the HX Stomp as follows:

Guitar > HX Stomp (effects send) > OD Pedal > MT 15 > Power Attenuator > HX Stomp (effects return L)

 

The HX Stomp is set up with a really simple patch that I figure may be incorrect:

 

Main L/R in > FX Loop (I'm assuming this should just go through OD pedal and amp) > IR > Main LR out

 

I'm getting similar feedback as described, to the point the amp's electronics are audibly squealing concerningly loudly. I'm not plugged into a DAW for the USB 1/2 and Output 1/2 feedback as described in another recent thread.

 

Would I need to either buy a DI box or alternative loadbox to isolate the ground? Am I doing something incorrect with the patch?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

 

Instead of making me guess, then moving the goal posts until I luck onto what you're trying to do, describe EXACTLY what your goal is including every physical speaker that you'll be using anywhere in (or out of) the configuration, future recording plans, etc.

 

State EXACTLY how you have it wired (point to point) with what kind of cables (TS,TRS,Insert), and include a copy (NOT a picture) of your preset.

 

With the above information, I'll be happy to help.

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8 hours ago, drby said:

Hi, I'm having a similar issue with different equipment; so rather than make a new thread I was hoping I could jump in here and confirm what I need to do.

 

I'm using an HX Stomp, OD pedal, PRS MT 15, and a Harley Benton PA-100 Power Attenuator. The aim is to use the OD pedal and MT 15 as replacements for OD and amp blocks in the HX Stomp as follows:

Guitar > HX Stomp (effects send) > OD Pedal > MT 15 > Power Attenuator > HX Stomp (effects return L)

 

The HX Stomp is set up with a really simple patch that I figure may be incorrect:

 

Main L/R in > FX Loop (I'm assuming this should just go through OD pedal and amp) > IR > Main LR out

 

I'm getting similar feedback as described, to the point the amp's electronics are audibly squealing concerningly loudly. I'm not plugged into a DAW for the USB 1/2 and Output 1/2 feedback as described in another recent thread.

 

Would I need to either buy a DI box or alternative loadbox to isolate the ground? Am I doing something incorrect with the patch?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

Yes this sounds exactly like the problem I was having. All I did to solve the issue was to remove the ground from one of the jack ends on the cable coming from the Loadbox. I will be getting a DI or Isolation box so I don't have a cable in my collection with disconnected ground. One thin I did do was to create a send block that was "SEND LEFT" and a return block "RETURN RIGHT". Then in the global settings I set the left side of the loop to "INSTRUMENT LEVEL" and the right side of the loop to "LINE LEVEL". That way the signal levels corresponded to the signal path. I have attached my patch that works. hth

 

Chris

 

rd2rk. Your help in this has been much appreciated. Maybe something was lost in communication but what was trying to be accomplished was really no different than inserting a pedal in the loop of the HX Stomp. It just happened to be an amplifier instead. 

Reactive Loop.hlx

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7 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

Instead of making me guess, then moving the goal posts until I luck onto what you're trying to do, describe EXACTLY what your goal is including every physical speaker that you'll be using anywhere in (or out of) the configuration, future recording plans, etc.

 

State EXACTLY how you have it wired (point to point) with what kind of cables (TS,TRS,Insert), and include a copy (NOT a picture) of your preset.

 

With the above information, I'll be happy to help.

 

Hi rd2rk, thanks for this, I didn't mean to make you guess. I was trying to be thorough, just not to the extent you wanted, it seems. Apologies if any (most) of this still is extremely amateur, I'm new to a lot of this more in-depth gear routing.

 

I've attached a diagram of the physical setup to assist in describing it. All cables are, to the best of my knowledge, TS instrument cables apart from amp to attenuator which is a speaker cable. The intention is to use headphones from the headphones socket, and USB into a DAW (eventually) so I can DI, record, and reamp using the HX Stomp.

 

The routing is as follows:

  • Guitar > L Mono input of HX Stomp with TS cable
  • FX Send of HX Stomp > pedal with TS cable
  • Pedal > input of MT 15 with TS cable
  • 8Ohm speaker output of MT 15 > 8Ohm speaker input of Harley Benton PA-100 with speaker cable
  • Line out of Harley Benton PA-100 > L FX Return of HX Stomp with TS cable
  • Output through headphones of HX Stomp

I'm yet to try USB into DAW, I've tried this setup with and without USB connected as I saw you post about that feedback in another thread, it didn't make a difference. Prior to attempting this with the HX Stomp I was using the same setup apart from guitar went direct into pedal and attenuator went into a Native Instruments Komplete Audio 1, this worked fine with no feedback.

 

I've also attached the patch as you requested, it's extremely simple. The intention would be to have an IR after the FX loop, and maybe a compressor prior to it.

 

2 hours ago, borz666 said:

Yes this sounds exactly like the problem I was having. All I did to solve the issue was to remove the ground from one of the jack ends on the cable coming from the Loadbox. I will be getting a DI or Isolation box so I don't have a cable in my collection with disconnected ground. One thin I did do was to create a send block that was "SEND LEFT" and a return block "RETURN RIGHT". Then in the global settings I set the left side of the loop to "INSTRUMENT LEVEL" and the right side of the loop to "LINE LEVEL". That way the signal levels corresponded to the signal path. I have attached my patch that works. hth

 

Chris

 

rd2rk. Your help in this has been much appreciated. Maybe something was lost in communication but what was trying to be accomplished was really no different than inserting a pedal in the loop of the HX Stomp. It just happened to be an amplifier instead. 

Reactive Loop.hlx 8.09 kB · 0 downloads

 

Thank you for this, it was getting late when I posted and I had tried isolating them and setting the input as line but I don't think I'd done it correctly yet as I was rushing. I think I might need a DI box or a reactive load with a ground lift or something. Very sad times, I was hoping the HX Stomp would save me money from having to buy DI and Reamp boxes.

routing.png

MT 15.hlx

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drby - I don't see a problem. Do you get the same noise without the OD in the circuit? Are you running everything from the same EMI/RFI FILTERED power strip?

 

In this whole discussion there seems to be a confusion of terms - a ground loop is NOT audio feedback, two different animals. 

IF your noise is the same as borz666, and he solved it by disconnecting a ground, by all means try it. Short of inserting a device that does the same, I got nothing.

 

I am wondering though, why 3 people with 3 different Attenuators are having the same problem? If it's an issue of Attenuators having noisy Line Outs (3 different units????), might a simple DI/hum-buster device like this:

 

https://smile.amazon.com/Premium-Direct-Injection-Audio-Box/dp/B0027V760M/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2MPP4NQFUHHL6&dchild=1&keywords=hum+eliminator&qid=1611158814&s=musical-instruments&sprefix=hum%2Caps%2C204&sr=1-5

 

Solve the problem? At $9.50 it's not much more than a cable you'll be damaging in the name of a cure. I have one of the above devices and, though I didn't get it to solve a noise problem, just for the convenience of using an XLR cable for a long run from a 1/4" only device, it does have both a ground switch and attenuator so you wouldn't have to use both loops just to match Inst Send/Line Return Levels (not a feedback or hum issue, just level matching).

 

Sorry I couldn't be more help.

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Thanks for the reply, rd2rk.

 

I have tried without the OD and I still get the feedback, it is a different pitch but feedback all the same.  Everything is running from the same power strip, I'm not 100% sure if it is filtered but it hasn't caused a problem in the past, is it that likely that adding an extra device would cause it to go from 0 to 100 on the feedback?

 

I will try one of these, like you suggest and see what happens. I deliberately got the HX Stomp to be an all-in-one for DI and reamping so I hope this works, the modelling isn't particularly important to me.

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Update - the DI box with ground lift made no difference.

 

However, I did narrow down the issue with something I should have absolutely checked before - the clean channel works perfectly, it is only the lead channel, when gain is involved, that there is any feedback.

 

If anyone has any thoughts, suggestions, etc. please do let me know.

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1 hour ago, drby said:

Update - the DI box with ground lift made no difference.

 

However, I did narrow down the issue with something I should have absolutely checked before - the clean channel works perfectly, it is only the lead channel, when gain is involved, that there is any feedback.

 

If anyone has any thoughts, suggestions, etc. please do let me know.

 

Turn down the GAIN? Don't stand right next to the speakers?

 

You might also record a sample of the "feedback" that you're experiencing and attach it here. That could help us narrow down the problem.....

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1 hour ago, rd2rk said:

 

Turn down the GAIN? Don't stand right next to the speakers?

 

You might also record a sample of the "feedback" that you're experiencing and attach it here. That could help us narrow down the problem.....

This happens on the lead channel regardless, with the tiniest bit of gain, and I want to play with gain anyway. Also standing further away does nothing sadly, this also happens whether there is a guitar plugged in or not.

 

I have recorded two files:

  • cleanworking.mp3
    • This is a relatively quiet simple chord that works absolutely fine.
  • leadchannelfeedback.mp3
    • This is uncomfortable to listen to do turn your headphones down a bit!
    • I play a similar chord but then switch to the lead channel and as the chord dies the feedback begins. I then mute the strings and quickly show that switching back to clean works fine.
    • None of this behaviour happens if I play just through my amp to a cabinet, through my amp into attenuator into another interface, or into my amp and then into the HX stomp after. It only happens if amp receives from the HX stomp and then returns back into it.

 

Thank you so much for persisting with this, I'm completely lost here and have no idea how to address this issue.

cleanworking.mp3 leadchannelfeedback.mp3

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Using an INSERT Cable (TRS to dual mono), and reducing everything to the simplest configuration, expanding step by step:

 

1) Guitar>Amp Input>Cabinet. Balance the two channels.

2) Guitar>Amp Input>Attenuator>Cabinet. Set the Speaker Out Knob on the Attenuator to the level you want for normal playing.

3) Guitar>HXS Input>HXS L/Mono Out (INST LEVEL)>Amp Input>Attenuator>Cabinet

4) Guitar>HXS Input>FX Loop L>FX Send L>Amp Input (INSERT CABLE MONO TIP)>Amp FX Send>L/Mono Return (separate TS Cable)>HXS L/Mono Out>Amp FX Return>Attenuator>Cabinet

 

Where does the feedback start? If NO FEEDBACK then:

 

5) Using the attached preset, Take the Line Out from the Attenuator to the HXS RIGHT RETURN. Take the RING half of the INSERT Cable to either a separate powered speaker or an external AI or anything you can hear it through. Turn up the Line Out Knob on the Attenuator SLOWLY. This is the Cab/IR send for recording. If you're using a DAW to test this, make sure the Input Echo switch is OFF or you WILL get feedback!

 

Feedback?

 

I hope I've gotten that all straight. It's harder to describe this kind of process than to actually do it!

 

 

drby.hlx

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Hi, I think we're in different time zones so apologies for the long delays on my replies.

 

I'll need to buy the TRS to dual mono cable is this what you mean?:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/6-35mm-Splitter-Insert-Vitalco-Adapter-Black/dp/B07WTP3TLV/

 

I think I understand the steps correctly but just to confirm:

  1. Normal playing amp into cab
  2. As above but with attenuator between amp and cab
  3. Like 2 but with HXS from Mono/L OUT (rather than FX Send) between guitar and amp input
  4. Similar to above but HXS and amp in 4CM with the FX Send L half of the INSERT cable above above going to amp input
  5. Same as 4 but connect attenuator  Line Out to FX Return R. Then the TRS dual mono should be splitting the L and R FX Sends (I think that is what you've done with panning) to take the right half of that to something which will accept sound? Only thing I have that takes 1/4 input like that is my other interface so I'll do that.

 

If I've gotten that right, that's really straight forward and you explained it perfectly. I'll take a day or two (depending on deliveries) to get this done but as soon as possible, if you could confirm that I'm looking at getting the right cable.

 

Thanks again so, so much!

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That's the cable. Unless the vendor is more specific with supplied docs, you'll need to check to see if SEND is TIP (HXS SEND L) or vice versa.

 

You've got the rest correct. Step 5 is just to take the complete signal, pre and post effects and power amp out back into the HXS to add a cab/IR for recording.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

That's the cable. Unless the vendor is more specific with supplied docs, you'll need to check to see if SEND is TIP (HXS SEND L) or vice versa.

 

You've got the rest correct. Step 5 is just to take the complete signal, pre and post effects and power amp out back into the HXS to add a cab/IR for recording.

 

 

Excellent, that's all ordered along with a couple more instrument cables as I've literally never had to have this many before. I'll crack the multimeter out ready, just in case there's no documentation, as I can't see a random cable company following any standardisation as to whether TIP/RING is SEND/RETURN.

 

I'll update you once either complete step 5 or encounter the issue. At this point I'm expecting whatever the problem is, it's going to be an expensive process to rectify it.

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Early update, seems that the attenuator is the issue but it is strange.

 

On step 3 (guitar > stomp > amp > attenuator > cab) the feedback started, before that was fine. I noticed, when everything was in a loop before, that the light to indicate the noise gate being active on the Precision Drive was always knocked off - it exhibits the same behaviour here, even though there isn't a loop. So it seems the attenuator has a real problem with the HX stomp being in the signal chain and it affects everything because of it.

 

Is it still worth continuing down the path with the new cables? Does it look like a new attenuator is the key? If so, is there an affordable one recommended?

 

Edit: OK so interestingly, when the attenuator is in the signal chain, HX Stomp BEFORE amp causes a problem but HX Stomp AFTER amp is fine:

 

Guitar > HX Stomp >  amp > attenuator > cab gives feedback

Guitar >  amp > attenuator > HX Stomp > Headphones/FRFR works fine

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8 hours ago, drby said:

Is it still worth continuing down the path with the new cables? Does it look like a new attenuator is the key? If so, is there an affordable one recommended?

 

 

You're asking the wrong person. I own a Helix so that I don't NEED tube amps and attenuators. If, for some reason I can't imagine, I felt COMPELLED to use a tube amp, I wouldn't have an Attenuator (been there, done that, it sucked). I'd get the best Reactive Load on the market, and the cheapest is not cheap.

 

Ask yourself this - do you really think that the sound you're going to get from your VERY EXPENSIVE tube amp and reactive load rig is going to be NIGHT AND DAY better than your Helix through a good FRFR rig? Enough to justify the many hours of frustration you've experienced over it that COULD have been spent having fun PLAYING guitar and getting better at it?

 

If the answer to the above questions is "ABSOLUTELY YES!" then have at it. For myself, I've done about as much as I can for you without having my hands on your equipment (wait - that doesn't sound the way it was meant....).

.

The troubleshooting steps I've given you are all you need to find the solution, IF there is one. TBH, I don't understand why there's a problem at all. It makes NO sense!

 

Good Luck!

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10 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

You're asking the wrong person. I own a Helix so that I don't NEED tube amps and attenuators. If, for some reason I can't imagine, I felt COMPELLED to use a tube amp, I wouldn't have an Attenuator (been there, done that, it sucked). I'd get the best Reactive Load on the market, and the cheapest is not cheap.

 

Ask yourself this - do you really think that the sound you're going to get from your VERY EXPENSIVE tube amp and reactive load rig is going to be NIGHT AND DAY better than your Helix through a good FRFR rig? Enough to justify the many hours of frustration you've experienced over it that COULD have been spent having fun PLAYING guitar and getting better at it?

 

If the answer to the above questions is "ABSOLUTELY YES!" then have at it. For myself, I've done about as much as I can for you without having my hands on your equipment (wait - that doesn't sound the way it was meant....).

.

The troubleshooting steps I've given you are all you need to find the solution, IF there is one. TBH, I don't understand why there's a problem at all. It makes NO sense!

 

Good Luck!

That is fair enough, thank you for all your help. I've been suspecting the extremely cheap attenuator has been a problem for quite a while and was hoping coming onto this forum would reveal I'm doing something wrong with the HXS that wouldn't cost money.

 

You're right, for what I want to do with the HXS and amp (DI and reamp) it isn't worth all this hassle right now, I'll cross that bridge again when it comes to it. I'm extremely happy with the convenience and sound quality of the HXS as-is, the modelling far surpassed what I expected after my experience of other modellers and plugins.

 

Thank you again for your time, I really appreciate it!

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  • 1 year later...
On 1/20/2021 at 9:42 PM, borz666 said:

Yes this sounds exactly like the problem I was having. All I did to solve the issue was to remove the ground from one of the jack ends on the cable coming from the Loadbox. I will be getting a DI or Isolation box so I don't have a cable in my collection with disconnected ground. One thin I did do was to create a send block that was "SEND LEFT" and a return block "RETURN RIGHT". Then in the global settings I set the left side of the loop to "INSTRUMENT LEVEL" and the right side of the loop to "LINE LEVEL". That way the signal levels corresponded to the signal path. I have attached my patch that works. hth

 

Chris

 

rd2rk. Your help in this has been much appreciated. Maybe something was lost in communication but what was trying to be accomplished was really no different than inserting a pedal in the loop of the HX Stomp. It just happened to be an amplifier instead. 

Reactive Loop.hlx 8.09 kB · 1 download

Hey there,

I'm trying to achieve a similar chain:

 

Electric Guitar > HXS Input L/Mono > Pre Amp FX > HXS FX Loop Send L > Amp Input > Speaker cable out to Weber Mini Mass attenuator Input > WMM Line Out > HXS FX Loop Return R/Mono > HXS Cab/Stereo FX > Headphones .

 

I've set up a send block (SEND LEFT, INSTRUMENT LEVEL) and return block (RETURN RIGHT,LINE LEVEL) in the HX Stomp.

I'm getting sound signal through my headphones, but changing the dials on my Fender Custom Vibro Champ does not change the sound.

It seems the signal is bypassing the sound affectors (Vol, Bass, Treble, Reverb, Speed, Vibrato) in the amp. Why do the amp's dials not change the sound in this context?

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On 5/6/2022 at 8:32 PM, sutompu said:

Hey there,

I'm trying to achieve a similar chain:

 

Electric Guitar > HXS Input L/Mono > Pre Amp FX > HXS FX Loop Send L > Amp Input > Speaker cable out to Weber Mini Mass attenuator Input > WMM Line Out > HXS FX Loop Return R/Mono > HXS Cab/Stereo FX > Headphones .

 

I've set up a send block (SEND LEFT, INSTRUMENT LEVEL) and return block (RETURN RIGHT,LINE LEVEL) in the HX Stomp.

I'm getting sound signal through my headphones, but changing the dials on my Fender Custom Vibro Champ does not change the sound.

It seems the signal is bypassing the sound affectors (Vol, Bass, Treble, Reverb, Speed, Vibrato) in the amp. Why do the amp's dials not change the sound in this context?

 

In Global Settings>INS/OUTS, RETURN TYPE needs to be set to RETURN.

 

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