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Rezzy777

Wireless MIDI over *USB* of Helix LT?

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Hello,

 

I am new to this forum, but I recently ordered a Helix LT and I hope to receive it tomorrow. 
 

Online I found out that it’s possible to send wireless MIDI signals (Previous Song, Next Song) to OnSong on an iPad. I have always been using a PageFlip pedal for these signals, so it would be great if I could get rid of this extra pedal.

 

Apparently it’s possible to buy some wireless MIDI adapter that’s able to send MIDI over Bluetooth to my iPad, but I am already using my MIDI Out for my Eventide H9 pedal... 
 

Is it somehow possible to send wireless MIDI over the USB B output to my iPad? 
 

Many thanks in advance!

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I would be interested to know as well. In theory this should be feasible (since it works via usb already). I haven't searched around but there should be wireless usb extention devices already which you could potentially test this theory.

Have you ever searched for this before?

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That’s exactly what I was thinking! ;-)

 

I have googled a bit but as usual is my question apparently so complex that I don’t get any usable results so far... :-D

 

I was actually hoping someone here could point me in the right direction!

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yeah, I get the same.. Whenever I search for something I get either audio bluetooth transmitter/receivers or wifi extenders.  Maybe there might be some other term to be used for this search or simply it doesn't exist..

I'll dig around and if I ever find something I'll post here.

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As far as I know the Helix doesn't provide any MIDI over USB facilities.  All MIDI functions are done through the MIDI in/out ports.

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@DunedinDragonMIDI commands are 100% supported over USB. I currently do it with the cable connected to the PC, and have seen many people do the same via android/ios too.

 

@Rezzy777 I came across this just now and it seems to be along the lines of what we talked just now.. https://www.yamahamusiclondon.com/UD-BT01-Wireless-MIDI-Adaptor/pidSUDBT01 It seems though that is not available currently.

 

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On 1/27/2021 at 1:26 PM, Rezzy777 said:

Is it somehow possible to send wireless MIDI over the USB B output to my iPad?


Hi,

 

Not sure if this is the sort of device you are asking about when you mention Wireless MIDI (WIDI)

 

https://www.cme-pro.com/widi-master/

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

 

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@datacommando Apparently the OP is aware of those but he is currently using his midi ports to connect to another pedal, what he was wondering is if there is something similar to this via the USB B port.

 

@Rezzy777 Having said this. Does your pedal also have USB port with midi support? If so, you could maybe connect the pedals with the USB cable and use a MIDI device as the one @datacommando posted to connect to your iPad/Phone (have no idea if this works, its just a thought based on assumptions of usb midi inter connectivity)

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@csantost That’s exactly what I meant!

 

I see, you mean I should try the wired version of this issue before trying wireless? ;-)

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4 minutes ago, csantost said:

Apparently the OP is aware of those but he is currently using his midi ports to connect to another pedal, what he was wondering is if there is something similar to this via the USB B port.


Yes, I realise that the OP already has an Eventide H9 on his MIDI Out, but the H9 also can also handle MIDI through it’s USB port beside the 2 five pin DIN sockets. In the early days of MIDI daisy changing things was the norm. I would have though this could be achieved by doing something similar by adding in the WIDI Master into the mix.
 

I’m coming at this cold, and haven’t looked at this too deeply. It’s just that I was aware of the WIDI gizmo being available, so I may be wide of the mark, and I’m busy with something else right now. I will probably delve into this later.

 

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6 minutes ago, datacommando said:


Yes, I realise that the OP already has an Eventide H9 on his MIDI Out, but the H9 also can also handle MIDI through it’s USB port beside the 2 five pin DIN sockets. In the early days of MIDI daisy changing things was the norm. I would have though this could be achieved by doing something similar by adding in the WIDI Master into the mix.
 

I’m coming at this cold, and haven’t looked at this too deeply. It’s just that I was aware of the WIDI gizmo being available, so I may be wide of the mark, and I’m busy with something else right now. I will probably delve into this later.

 

 

I think we are on the same page... Although I don't know the H9, I was trying to suggest precisely what you said as well.

To sum it up what we are saying is:

- Connect Helix and H9 via usb cable

- Connect iPad to Helix via MIDI out/in using the WIDI master (or similar product)

 

@Rezzy777 I guess then you can try connecting your H9 to the Helix with the usb cable and see if it works out. If it does that its just a matter of buying the WIDI and connecting your Helix to the iPad..

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Got it. I was hoping someone already had some experience regarding this issue...

But thanks anyway guys! ;-)

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Okay, I'm a bit further now.

 

I actually connected an old USB B (printer) cable to my Helix LT.

At the other end of the cable there's a default USB A connector.

I connected this cable to my iPad with a Lightning-to-USB-cable from Apple.

And MIDI actually works, I can send commands to my iPad from my Helix!

Now I still have those MIDI ports free at my Helix for my H9!

But the big question is now: though it works with a cable, does this also work wireless?

 

For example, I could buy a wireless bluetooth MIDI USB adapter like this:

CME WIDI BUD Bluetooth MIDI USB adapter (Sorry, it's a Dutch website)

 

...which I then connect to my Helix with a small USB A-to-USB B-cable.

 

Does anyone know if this could possibly work?

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22 minutes ago, Rezzy777 said:

For example, I could buy a wireless bluetooth MIDI USB adapter like this:

Does anyone know if this could possibly work?

 

Godverdomme!
Hier is hetzelfde product beschreven in het Engels voor alle anderen.

 

Here's the same product desribed in English for every one else.

 

https://xkeyair.com/widi-bud/

 

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My bad, I should have posted a link to a English website (to me only the picture mattered), no need for swearing here ;-)

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The website actually says this:

 

5. Connect other Bluetooth MIDI devices.

You’re not limited to connecting our own Xkey Air. The WIDI BUD dongle plays nicely with all other Bluetooth MIDI devices, including the Korg microKEY Air, nanoKEY studio, Jamstik+, Yamaha MD-BT01/UD-BT-01, Roland A-01, etc.

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4 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

As far as I know the Helix doesn't provide any MIDI over USB facilities.  All MIDI functions are done through the MIDI in/out ports.

 

Helix has 100% MIDI over USB. I use it every day with my iPad.

 

On 1/27/2021 at 2:26 PM, Rezzy777 said:

Apparently it’s possible to buy some wireless MIDI adapter that’s able to send MIDI over Bluetooth to my iPad, but I am already using my MIDI Out for my Eventide H9 pedal... 
 

Is it somehow possible to send wireless MIDI over the USB B output to my iPad? 
 

Many thanks in advance!

 

Since you are using at least one cable, for the H9, Id connect Helix to iPad via USB, and use a MIDI to BT for the H9. At this point the iPad can be used to propagate Helix MIDI to any other device (other than the H9), using a MIDI to BT converter/receiver. I use AUM to propagate MIDI, but there are many options.

 

This solution will save you to buy two BT MIDI devices, using iPad as MIDI Central (MIDI IN/OUT Advertise)

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How about something like this to give you additional MIDI ports

http://www.midisolutions.com/prodqth.htm
 

The MIDI Solutions Quadra Thru is a 1 in 4 out MIDI Thru Box. All MIDI messages appearing at the input are sent to all four Thru outputs. Active circuitry cleans up any skewing of MIDI data bits that has occurred at the input, ensuring reliable operation in setups that require daisy chaining or long cable runs.

The Quadra Thru is MIDI powered, and requires no batteries or power supply to operate with most MIDI products (see FAQs - Power and FAQs - LED for more information). A MIDI indicator LED lights up when the product is powered and flashes when MIDI data passes through it.

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8 minutes ago, PierM said:

Since you are using at least one cable, for the H9, Id connect Helix to iPad via USB, and use a MIDI to BT for the H9. At this point the iPad can be used to propagate Helix MIDI to any other device (other than the H9), using a MIDI to BT converter/receiver.

 

^^^^^This^^^^^

 

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8 minutes ago, gk001 said:

How about something like this to give you additional MIDI ports

http://www.midisolutions.com/prodqth.htm
 

The MIDI Solutions Quadra Thru is a 1 in 4 out MIDI Thru Box. All MIDI messages appearing at the input are sent to all four Thru outputs. Active circuitry cleans up any skewing of MIDI data bits that has occurred at the input, ensuring reliable operation in setups that require daisy chaining or long cable runs.

The Quadra Thru is MIDI powered, and requires no batteries or power supply to operate with most MIDI products (see FAQs - Power and FAQs - LED for more information). A MIDI indicator LED lights up when the product is powered and flashes when MIDI data passes through it.

But does it have Bluetooth?

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15 minutes ago, PierM said:

 

Helix has 100% MIDI over USB. I use it every day with my iPad.

 

 

Since you are using at least one cable, for the H9, Id connect Helix to iPad via USB, and use a MIDI to BT for the H9. At this point the iPad can be used to propagate Helix MIDI to any other device (other than the H9), using a MIDI to BT converter/receiver. I use AUM to propagate MIDI, but there are many options.

 

This solution will save you to buy two BT MIDI devices, using iPad as MIDI Central (MIDI IN/OUT Advertise)

You are clearly much more experienced in this area, but I think I understand what you mean: I could make some kind of wireless MIDI Hub from my iPad, right?

 

I’ll give it some thought. I was actually hoping for a wireless MIDI connection between my Helix and my iPad...

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20 minutes ago, gk001 said:

How about something like this to give you additional MIDI ports

http://www.midisolutions.com/prodqth.htm
 

The MIDI Solutions Quadra Thru is a 1 in 4 out MIDI Thru Box. All MIDI messages appearing at the input are sent to all four Thru outputs. Active circuitry cleans up any skewing of MIDI data bits that has occurred at the input, ensuring reliable operation in setups that require daisy chaining or long cable runs.

The Quadra Thru is MIDI powered, and requires no batteries or power supply to operate with most MIDI products (see FAQs - Power and FAQs - LED for more information). A MIDI indicator LED lights up when the product is powered and flashes when MIDI data passes through it.

 

This is a good device, I have one (it can be glitchy for heavy MIDI traffic and clock). But at this point, for the money, he could just buy two BT MIDI, one for the Helix, one for the H9. Helix will propagate MIDI IN/OUT to both iPad (iPad still used as MIDI Central to bridge to H9) and then H9, which would get the other BT adapter. This is a completely wireless MIDI scheme. No USB needed for this option, no midi cables. Just two BT MIDI and iPad as MIDI Central.

 

I have a bunch of these, they are cheap and they do the job.

 

image.thumb.jpeg.a77a076abbfe7ed32debf6811c141153.jpeg

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These are Quicco Sound mi.1, Rev 3. I believe they are hard to find outside EU, but everything similar is gonna be fine.

 

Yamaha MD-BT01, or CME WIDI Master, or similar....all good stuff, with very low latency.

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Okay,

14 minutes ago, PierM said:

 

This is a good device, I have one (it can be glitchy for heavy MIDI traffic and clock). But at this point, for the money, he could just buy two BT MIDI, one for the Helix, one for the H9. Helix will propagate MIDI IN/OUT to both iPad (iPad still used as MIDI Central to bridge to H9) and then H9, which would get the other BT adapter. This is a completely wireless MIDI scheme. No USB needed for this option, no midi cables. Just two BT MIDI and iPad as MIDI Central.

 

I have a bunch of these, they are cheap and they do the job.

 

image.thumb.jpeg.a77a076abbfe7ed32debf6811c141153.jpeg

That’s a good idea as well, thank you guys!

 

So, what if I buy a MIDI splitter cable? If I connect that to my Helix, I’ll have 1 output for my H9 and another 1 to put a wireless Bud in to connect with my iPad. I found a cable on Amazon (you’ll probably need to switch languages, sorry):

https://www.amazon.nl/MIDI-splitterkabel-DIN-stekker-hoofdtelefoon-ingangskabel-synthesizer/dp/B07C4S1Z93/ref=asc_df_B07C4S1Z93/?tag=nlshogostdsp-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=452866970323&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4055256332084852945&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9063538&hvtargid=pla-561950868414&psc=1#aw-udpv3-customer-reviews_feature_div

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3 minutes ago, Rezzy777 said:

Okay,

That’s a good idea as well, thank you guys!

 

What if I buy a MIDI splitter cable? If I connect that to my Helix, I’ll have 1 output for my H9 and another 1 to put a wireless Bud in to connect with my iPad. I found a cable on Amazon (you’ll probably need to switch languages, sorry):

https://www.amazon.nl/MIDI-splitterkabel-DIN-stekker-hoofdtelefoon-ingangskabel-synthesizer/dp/B07C4S1Z93/ref=asc_df_B07C4S1Z93/?tag=nlshogostdsp-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=452866970323&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4055256332084852945&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9063538&hvtargid=pla-561950868414&psc=1#aw-udpv3-customer-reviews_feature_div

 

A MIDI splitter cant transport voltage from the loop, also these are very prone to conflicts and glitches. Without voltage, you wont be able to use a BT wireless which needs MIDI loop to be closed.

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Got it, thank you! Unfortunately I can’t find the QuiccoSound buds online that you are using

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8 minutes ago, Rezzy777 said:

Got it, thank you! Unfortunately I can’t find the QuiccoSound buds online that you are using

 

I see. Shame, as they are very small compared to the competition

 

Anyway, you can go with Yamaha MD-BT01, they do the same thing.... they are just much longer than Quicco.

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22 minutes ago, Rezzy777 said:

Got it, thank you! Unfortunately I can’t find the QuiccoSound buds online that you are using

 

 

It was discontinued.

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Ah that’s a shame indeed!

 

I came by this idea when I watched this video:


This guy made two empty presets to switch songs on his iPad.

 

1: He chose FS5 and FS6 for switching songs, can I pick Mode and Tap instead? 

2: If not, how does he have these 2 FS in EACH bank? Does he just copy them over or can you make some presets “fixed”, so they stay in place when changing banks?

 

I’m new to this, please bare with me ;-)

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1 hour ago, gk001 said:

How about something like this to give you additional MIDI ports

http://www.midisolutions.com/prodqth.htm
 

The MIDI Solutions Quadra Thru is a 1 in 4 out MIDI Thru Box. All MIDI messages appearing at the input are sent to all four Thru outputs. Active circuitry cleans up any skewing of MIDI data bits that has occurred at the input, ensuring reliable operation in setups that require daisy chaining or long cable runs.

The Quadra Thru is MIDI powered, and requires no batteries or power supply to operate with most MIDI products (see FAQs - Power and FAQs - LED for more information). A MIDI indicator LED lights up when the product is powered and flashes when MIDI data passes through it.


@gk001 I see that this is a box with 4 outputs. I can’t find a box with just two outputs (one for the H9, one for my iPad (need a wireless MIDI Bud there)).

 

Am I not looking hard enough online or does a box with 2 outputs instead of 4 just not exist for some technical reason?

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8 minutes ago, Rezzy777 said:


@gk001 I see that this is a box with 4 outputs. I can’t find a box with just two outputs (one for the H9, one for my iPad (need a wireless MIDI Bud there)).

 

Am I not looking hard enough online or does a box with 2 outputs instead of 4 just not exist for some technical reason?

 

If you go that way, I think CME is the only option, as you can plug just the transmitter, without close the loop. Not sure it will get proper voltage and current tho....Never

tried.

 

Before to buy all that stuff, be sure you do proper research, or you risk to throw the money out of the window. :)

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Ehm, I don’t understand. I do need some box like the Quadra right? I thought CME is just a wireless MIDI bud...? And what do you mean by “closing the loop”?

I feel like Neo talking to Morpheus here :-D :-D

 

(BTW, I am visiting this forum via my iPhone, using Chrome. But I keep being signed out after a couple of minutes, and I have to sign in multiple times to be able to reply. Is this a known issue of this forum?)

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11 minutes ago, Rezzy777 said:

Ehm, I don’t understand. I do need some box like the Quadra right? I thought CME is just a wireless MIDI bud...?

 

(BTW, I am visiting this forum via my iPhone, using Chrome. But I keep being signed out after a couple of minutes, and I have to sign in multiple times to be able to reply. Is this a known issue of this forum?)

 

No, you dont need any Box. If you use two BT MIDI set, and an ipad;

 

Helix has MIDI loop closed with one Yamaha BT-01

iPad will receive and send (if needed) BT MIDI From Helix, via BT-01 (you can use AUM to create the MIDI Route)

iPad will advertise MIDI Over BT wireless and will become a Central.

H9 has MIDI loop closed with a second BT-01 and will communicate with iPad Central

AUM will put in communication iPad (and apps using MIDI) with Helix, and Helix with H9.

 

Remember these BT devices, are using the serial power (also called Power Over MIDI), which can be 3.3V or 5V. These splitters, merger, etc, are typically asking 5V, and Im not sure Helix is producing that power for them. This means you are not sure those boxes will transport the voltage needed to powerup the BT Wireless.

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Ah, you’re suggesting I just buy 2 Yamaha sets, one for the Helix and one for the H9! Didn’t think of that! 

But you keep telling me about a loop, what do I need a loop for? I’m just curious :-)

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1 minute ago, Rezzy777 said:

Ah, you’re suggesting I just buy 2 Yamaha sets, one for the Helix and one for the H9! Didn’t think of that! 

But you keep telling me about a loop, what do I need a loop for? I’m just curious :-)

 

Loop I mean the BT Wireless adapter going into MIDI IN and OUT in the back of the Helix and H9... :)

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Is a loop necessary? Currently I only use the MIDI Out of my Helix. I don’t use the MIDI In. Is that bad somehow?

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23 minutes ago, Rezzy777 said:

Is a loop necessary? Currently I only use the MIDI Out of my Helix. I don’t use the MIDI In. Is that bad somehow?

 

MIDI Out is mandatory yes, as it's giving the power to the transmitter. So, if you dont need to send anything back to Helix, you can just plug the Helix out. For the H9, if you need to control it through the Helix MIDI commands, down to H9 MIDI IN , you need both IN and OUT connected (on the H9).

 

Now I need to go. :)

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The CME WIDI Master is far better choice than the yamaha.

 

A pair of WIDI Master also work together (point to point MIDI interconnectivity) not needing an iPad in-between.

 

 

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