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Rezzy777

Wireless MIDI over *USB* of Helix LT?

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3 hours ago, Rezzy777 said:

But I keep being signed out after a couple of minutes, and I have to sign in multiple times to be able to reply. Is this a known issue of this forum?


Yes - it’s constant issue and total PITA.

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I really need to learn more about MIDI. I keep hearing terms I never heard of :-D

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Have you checked the possibility of connecting the Helix to the H9 via USB?  If this works it seems to me that you original question can be fulfilled very simply.

 

You would just need to get one of the bluetooth MIDI connectors already mentioned, connect it to the Helix and connect your iPad to this.

 

This is assuming that the whole point of your question was to have a wireless midi control to your Helix, whilst the connection between Helix and H9 can be via cable (as it currently is).

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1 hour ago, csantost said:

Have you checked the possibility of connecting the Helix to the H9 via USB?  If this works it seems to me that you original question can be fulfilled very simply.

 

You would just need to get one of the bluetooth MIDI connectors already mentioned, connect it to the Helix and connect your iPad to this.

 

This is assuming that the whole point of your question was to have a wireless midi control to your Helix, whilst the connection between Helix and H9 can be via cable (as it currently is).

Oh that’s a great idea as well, never thought of that. But that means I need a very specific USB cable...

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You can try using your existing cable with an adapter on the USB A  side to whatever USB type the H9 has * (or you could check on Amazon, or whatever online store that sells cables, if they have a cable with both ends you need.).  At least this is a cheap way of testing out before having to resort to more complex and expensive solutions.. ;)

 

*You could also use the H9 usb cable and buy an adapter to match the Helix port, which is USB B

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49 minutes ago, Rezzy777 said:

Oh that’s a great idea as well, never thought of that. But that means I need a very specific USB cable...

 

It's not gonna work.

 

USB Midi (as any other USB protocol), needs a device to Host communication. Helix and H9 are devices, Host is a computer, or a tablet, an ipad, etc. This is why you have different USB ports there.

 

When you inter-connect two USB peripherals (helix and H9) via USB (forcing the connection through adapters), you have two peripherals with nothing to say each other, since it's the HOST that manages and translates data traffic between USB peripherals. Connecting Helix with H9 is more or less like connecting a Printer to a Mouse.

 

https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/basic-of-usb

 

EDIT: Also, in general, never force a direct link between USB devices, unless you don't know what you are doing. Not the case here, as USB B doesn't transport voltage, but USB A does, as well as many other protocols and ports. So, my advice, if you don't know how things are working, never try to force a connection between two devices with different ports, as happens that those ports are different for a good reason, and you may fry something just messing around... ;)

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5 hours ago, Rezzy777 said:

I really need to learn more about MIDI. I keep hearing terms I never heard of :-D


In that case, you may find this useful to refer to. It has been around for a couple of years, but the info should still be valid.
 

Thanks to “Stoopalini” on TGP for putting this together and making it freely available.

 

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/the-unofficial-helix-midi-guide.1954544/


Hope this helps/makes sense.

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Thanks for the explanation @PierM!!! 

To me this is what a forum is all about, sharing and learning all the time. 

 

@Rezzy777 back to the drawing board..lol

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46 minutes ago, csantost said:

Thanks for the explanation @PierM!!! 

To me this is what a forum is all about, sharing and learning all the time. 

 

@Rezzy777 back to the drawing board..lol

:-D indeed, thank you so much!

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I really thought this whole thing would be so easy: just connect a CME WIDI BUD USB Adapter to my Helix with a USB A-to-USB B-converter so I can connect my Helix to my iPad. And that would be all :-D

 

Even after reading those articles about MIDI it’s hard for me to understand why this won’t work :-D

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29 minutes ago, Rezzy777 said:

I really thought this whole thing would be so easy: just connect a CME WIDI BUD USB Adapter to my Helix with a USB A-to-USB B-converter so I can connect my Helix to my iPad. And that would be all :-D

 

Even after reading those articles about MIDI it’s hard for me to understand why this won’t work :-D

 

CME WIDI USB is a USB device, and needs an HOST (You plug the WIDI to a laptop [HOST], you connecto to a BT keyboard [USB Device]...and stuff like that). Helix is NOT an host, is another device. So, as well as with the H9, connecting helix usb to CME WIDI USB, is like connecting a Printer to a Mouse....You keep thinking an USB port design, as just a matter of design. It is NOT. The design changes, as the purpose is different. Just read the info I linked, it's all explained. ;)

 

....At some point, since you seems lacking MIDI and USB basics, you have either to believe users here who knows that stuff, or experiment yourself your own route, at your own risk.


At this point, you've been suggested with many options available, but I see you keep searching for something different, so yeah, feel free to experiment buying random stuff and connecting random adapters to random ports. ;)

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34 minutes ago, PierM said:

 

CME WIDI USB is a USB device, and needs an HOST (You plug the WIDI to a laptop [HOST], you connecto to a BT keyboard [USB Device]...and stuff like that). Helix is NOT an host, is another device. So, as well as with the H9, connecting helix usb to CME WIDI USB, is like connecting a Printer to a Mouse....You keep thinking an USB port design, as just a matter of design. It is NOT. The design changes, as the purpose is different. Just read the info I linked, it's all explained. ;)

 

....At some point, since you seems lacking MIDI and USB basics, you have either to believe users here who knows that stuff, or experiment yourself your own route, at your own risk.


At this point, you've been suggested with many options available, but I see you keep searching for something different, so yeah, feel free to experiment buying random stuff and connecting random adapters to random ports. ;)

 

@PierM I am really truly grateful for all the offered suggestions, also for all your MIDI tips and tricks!

 

In my last post I didn't mean to be stubborn, I just concluded that the needed MIDI knowledge for this solution appears to be pretty big,

while I thought this would be 'another easy MIDI question' to ask. Apparently I'm the first person who has ever come up with this stupid idea :-D

 

My sincere apologies if I sounded ungrateful, this is certainly not the case! 

I just received so many in-depth technical solutions that I really have to make up my mind to pick one! :-D 

 

Many thanks again, you (and all of the other guys) are of great help!

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39 minutes ago, Rezzy777 said:

 

@PierM I am really truly grateful for all the offered suggestions, also for all your MIDI tips and tricks!

 

In my last post I didn't mean to be stubborn, I just concluded that the needed MIDI knowledge for this solution appears to be pretty big,

while I thought this would be 'another easy MIDI question' to ask. Apparently I'm the first person who has ever come up with this stupid idea :-D

 

My sincere apologies if I sounded ungrateful, this is certainly not the case! 

I just received so many in-depth technical solutions that I really have to make up my mind to pick one! :-D 

 

Many thanks again, you (and all of the other guys) are of great help!

 

No worries. Once you get the concept, it's easy to follow the logic;

 

USB A = HOST

USB B, USB B micro = USB Peripheral

 

USB MIDI Comunication = USB Peripheral <---------------------------> HOST = USB B <-----------------CABLE--------------------> USB A

 

NO USB Comunication (WRONG CONNECTION) = USB Peripheral <--------------------------->USB Peripheral = USB B <---------------CABLE-------------->USB B

 

Helix = USB Peripheral = USB B

H9 = USB Peripheral = USB B Micro

CME WIDI USB = USB Peripheral = USB A direct (Since doesn't need a cable and goes directly connected to HOST)

 

iPad = HOST (USB A, through the Camera Kit adapter)

Laptop = HOST (USB A)

PC = HOST (USB A)

 

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9 minutes ago, PierM said:

 

No worries. Once you get the concept, it's easy to follow the logic;

 

USB A = HOST

USB B, USB B micro = USB Peripheral

 

USB MIDI Comunication = USB Peripheral <---------------------------> HOST = USB B <-----------------CABLE--------------------> USB A

 

NO USB Comunication (WRONG CONNECTION) = USB Peripheral <--------------------------->USB Peripheral = USB B <---------------CABLE-------------->USB B

 

Helix = USB Peripheral = USB B

H9 = USB Peripheral = USB B Micro

CME WIDI USB = USB Peripheral = USB A direct (Since doesn't need a cable and goes directly connected to HOST)

 

iPad = HOST (USB A, through the Camera Kit adapter)

Laptop = HOST (USB A)

PC = HOST (USB A)

 


Ahaaaa!!!

 

I got the idea now, thank you for writing it down like this! 

 

(I’m a designer so I guess I’m more into images :-D)

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In the interest of continuing this conversation and learn a bit more about our devices uses and its functionalities...

 

I read the below statement on the hx stomp manual regarding midi:

"HX Stomp transmits and responds to MIDI messages over USB in the same manner as via its MIDI connectors."

 

This confused me a bit as my understanding from it is that the USB MIDI functions just like the regular MIDI connectors, and hence direct connection between devices using USB would be possible.  However, this contradicts what PierM explained above, which btw made sense to me.

 

Any thoughts on this one anybody?

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26 minutes ago, csantost said:

In the interest of continuing this conversation and learn a bit more about our devices uses and its functionalities...

 

I read the below statement on the hx stomp manual regarding midi:

"HX Stomp transmits and responds to MIDI messages over USB in the same manner as via its MIDI connectors."

 

This confused me a bit as my understanding from it is that the USB MIDI functions just like the regular MIDI connectors, and hence direct connection between devices using USB would be possible.  However, this contradicts what PierM explained above, which btw made sense to me.

 

Any thoughts on this one anybody?

 

There is no contradiction, if you understand what have been said.... :)

 

Just watch that video. Hope this finally make things clear.....lol

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, PierM said:

 

There is no contradiction, if you understand what have been said.... :)

 

 

Very true indeed!

 

Thanks for the video and all the info.

 

It would be cool if our l6 boxes could act as host as well (as I originally thought possible) but it is what it is and it is very cool already. :)

 

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1 hour ago, csantost said:

 

Very true indeed!

 

Thanks for the video and all the info.

 

It would be cool if our l6 boxes could act as host as well (as I originally thought possible) but it is what it is and it is very cool already. :)

 

 

Well, Helix has already a full MIDI DIN loop available (IN/OUT-THRU), so in theory a internal Host would have been a bit overkill for the average market of the Helix. Then, if as the OP you run out of MIDI ports, and you want to go wireless through Helix USB, you could buy a little MIDI USB HOST (a little computer that does the job of managing MIDI IN/OUT data flow), and plug your BT Wireless MIDI there. Like that one in the pic i posted. Helix USB cable goes into that box USB A Host, and there you go....you have 1 extra MIDI Loop available to go wireless. That's pretty much my setup, as my Helix MIDI DIN ports are connected to a set of loopers, and USB goes into iPad (my host), to control the Helix with hands, and propagate the Helix midi to other wireless controllers (like an old BCR2000 with a quicco, that I use to changes on the fly few Helix blocks params)... OP has an iPad, like me, so he didnt really need another HOST (hence my original suggestion)...

 

image.jpeg.231e8329e189e0b0f27fb6291bd46e3c.jpeg

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@PierM How about this solution (something similar was mentioned earlier by others):


http://www.midisolutions.com/prodthr.htm

I connect 1 Thru of this Box to my H9, and in the other 1

I insert a CME WIDI MASTER Out for Bluetooth with my iPad. 

This Thru box gets its power from the MIDI Out of my Helix, so no adapter required.

 

What do you think?
Or should I go with a USB solution instead?

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25 minutes ago, Rezzy777 said:

@PierM How about this solution (something similar was mentioned earlier by others):


http://www.midisolutions.com/prodthr.htm

I connect 1 Thru of this Box to my H9, and in the other 1

I insert a CME WIDI MASTER Out for Bluetooth with my iPad. 

This Thru box gets its power from the MIDI Out of my Helix, so no adapter required.

 

What do you think?
Or should I go with a USB solution instead?

 

It should work yes.

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I’m glad I’m finally starting to make a bit of sense of MIDI :-D :-D
 

It just occurred to me that both the CME and Thru Box will be using power from the MIDI Out of my Helix.

Could that somehow be a problem, that the Helix MIDI Out won’t have enough power for both devices?

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38 minutes ago, Rezzy777 said:

I’m glad I’m finally starting to make a bit of sense of MIDI :-D :-D
 

It just occurred to me that both the CME and Thru Box will be using power from the MIDI Out of my Helix.

Could that somehow be a problem, that the Helix MIDI Out won’t have enough power for both devices?

 

Power is going nowhere, even if you had 100 MIDI devices in a daisy chain.

 

It's current draw that matters, and those BT trasmitters are usually requiring small currents. Should be fine, but dont ask me 100% warranty, as I never tested this specific solution.

 

On paper, it should work.

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12 minutes ago, PierM said:

 

Power is going nowhere, even if you had 100 MIDI devices in a daisy chain.

 

It's current draw that matters, and those BT trasmitters are usually requiring small currents. Should be fine, but dont ask me 100% warranty, as I never tested this specific solution.

 

On paper, it should work.


Thank you so much for your advice!
I think I’ll just buy these devices and return them when this whole idea doesn’t work after all.

 

I am currently not planning to add more MIDI devices, so I don’t need the iPad as Host.


Perhaps in the future I’ll buy an extra CME for that Thru box so I can add the H9 via Bluetooth as well...

 

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6 hours ago, PierM said:

 

Well, Helix has already a full MIDI DIN loop available (IN/OUT-THRU), so in theory a internal Host would have been a bit overkill for the average market of the Helix. Then, if as the OP you run out of MIDI ports, and you want to go wireless through Helix USB, you could buy a little MIDI USB HOST (a little computer that does the job of managing MIDI IN/OUT data flow), and plug your BT Wireless MIDI there. Like that one in the pic i posted. Helix USB cable goes into that box USB A Host, and there you go....you have 1 extra MIDI Loop available to go wireless. That's pretty much my setup, as my Helix MIDI DIN ports are connected to a set of loopers, and USB goes into iPad (my host), to control the Helix with hands, and propagate the Helix midi to other wireless controllers (like an old BCR2000 with a quicco, that I use to changes on the fly few Helix blocks params)... OP has an iPad, like me, so he didnt really need another HOST (hence my original suggestion)...

 

image.jpeg.231e8329e189e0b0f27fb6291bd46e3c.jpeg


Do you know if there are MIDI USB HOSTS without power adapter?
I like to use as few cables as possible. Just comparing some solutions here... ;-)

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28 minutes ago, Rezzy777 said:


Do you know if there are MIDI USB HOSTS without power adapter?
I like to use as few cables as possible. Just comparing some solutions here... ;-)

 

HOST needs power and there are not other way to feed it without a DC IN.

 

...and No, MIDI cant feed VA to an HOST, neither the Helix.

 

And btw, you have already an HOST that can run "without" DC IN....that iPad with its battery. :P

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@PierM Tonight I couldn’t sleep well, so I have been thinking: how about if I just put a CME in the Output of my H9? Just daisy chaining my iPad? That’s an even simpler (and cheaper) solution, right?

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1 hour ago, Rezzy777 said:

@PierM Tonight I couldn’t sleep well, so I have been thinking: how about if I just put a CME in the Output of my H9? Just daisy chaining my iPad? That’s an even simpler (and cheaper) solution, right?

 

Buddy, you are killing me!

 

That was my first suggestion in this thread....:D.

 

On 1/28/2021 at 6:57 PM, PierM said:

...Id connect Helix to iPad via USB, and use a MIDI to BT for the H9. At this point the iPad can be used to propagate Helix MIDI to any other device (other than the H9), using a MIDI to BT converter/receiver. I use AUM to propagate MIDI, but there are many options.

 

 

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9 hours ago, PierM said:

 

Buddy, you are killing me!

 

That was my first suggestion in this thread....:D.

 

 


Hahaha actually my idea is slightly different though:

 

I was thinking about keeping the H9 connected to my Helix with a MIDI cable (as is the current situation). 
But since I’m now only using the MIDI IN of my H9, I’d thought I could connect a CME to the MIDI OUT of the H9 and thus connect to my iPad through the CME in the H9 instead. 

So no USB involved in this scenario.

 

What do you think? :-)

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30 minutes ago, Rezzy777 said:


Hahaha actually my idea is slightly different though:

 

I was thinking about keeping the H9 connected to my Helix with a MIDI cable (as is the current situation). 
But since I’m now only using the MIDI IN of my H9, I’d thought I could connect a CME to the MIDI OUT of the H9 and thus connect to my iPad through the CME in the H9 instead. 

So no USB involved in this scenario.

 

What do you think? :-)

 

If you are sending from Helix to the iPad, through the H9, that's a THRU not an OUT. The THRU mode is often filtered (especially on devices with a single THRU/OUT), so you can only hope that H9 has a clean and reliable THRU, otherwise it could be glitchy.


Said that, if you are just sending couple of CC messages here and there, it should be fine.

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1 hour ago, PierM said:

 

If you are sending from Helix to the iPad, through the H9, that's a THRU not an OUT. The THRU mode is often filtered, so you can only hope that H9 has a clean and reliable THRU, otherwise it could be glitchy.


Said that, if you just sending couple of CC messages, it should be fine.


You’re right, it’s a THRU (I keep learning here)!
I think this might be the easiest (and cheapest) way to connect the Helix to my iPad after all.
And I am only going to send “next page” or “previous page” to my iPad, so that shouldn’t be too difficult, right?
 

I think I’m gonna give this solution a shot. Thanks again, my MIDI MASTER! :-) :-)

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On 1/28/2021 at 10:59 PM, Ed_Saxman said:

The CME WIDI Master is far better choice than the yamaha.

 

A pair of WIDI Master also work together (point to point MIDI interconnectivity) not needing an iPad in-between.

 

 

 

@Ed_Saxman Why is the CME WIDI MASTER a better choice than the Yamaha? :-)

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@PierM Do you know if it's possible to HOLD a MIDI switch?

 

I am currently using my Pageflip Firefly to flip through the songs in OnSong on my iPad,

but I prefer to start using my Helix LT instead for this, in order to decrease my pedal amount for a gig.

 

One of the great features of the Pageflip Firefly is its 'REPEAT' option.

That way, when I HOLD a footswitch down, it keeps flipping through all songs until I release the pedal.

 

Do you think something similar is possible with the Helix via MIDI?

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50 minutes ago, Rezzy777 said:

@PierM Do you know if it's possible to HOLD a MIDI switch?

 

I am currently using my Pageflip Firefly to flip through the songs in OnSong on my iPad,

but I prefer to start using my Helix LT instead for this, in order to decrease my pedal amount for a gig.

 

One of the great features of the Pageflip Firefly is its 'REPEAT' option.

That way, when I HOLD a footswitch down, it keeps flipping through all songs until I release the pedal.

 

Do you think something similar is possible with the Helix via MIDI?

 

Never had a Pageflip or OnSong on my iPad, so not sure how this is working.


From the sound of it, I'm assuming it's a macro available in the Pageflip firmware/software. You can't do these kind of macros with the Helix, you can just either send a momentary or a toggle CC, but the action to scroll through songs while pressing, sounds like a macro to me, something that waits a second or two, then start sending continuous commands to the OnSong application, until you lift.


Again, just assuming here... no idea how these things are communicating, neither I know what kind of MIDI messages OnSong can manage. As soon as you have all the toys at home, you can start experimenting on your own. ;)

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Just now, PierM said:

 

Never had a Pageflip or OnSong on my iPad, so not sure how this is working.


From the sound of it, I'm assuming it's a macro available in the Pageflip firmware/software. You can't do these kind of macros with the Helix, you can just either send a momentary or a toggle CC, but the command to scroll through song while pressing, sounds like a macro to me, something that waits a second or two, then start sending continuous commands to the OnSong application, until you lift.


Again, just assuming here... no idea how these things are communicating. As soon as you have all the toys at home, you can start experimenting on your own. ;)

 

Got it, thanks!

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Okay, this is really annoying...

 

Since you guys helped me figuring out the required hardware, I thought I'd start

with my existing USB cable connected to my iPad to try and see how all this can be done.

 

It appears to be a lot harder than I thought.

I do have some options, but actually none of them are any good (to me):

 

1. I could work in Preset Mode and use 2 Presets per Bank to scroll through songs in OnSong. But this won't work since I sometimes need to scroll down a song WHILE PLAYING (switching Presets is then not an option).

2. I could use Snapshot Mode, but that means I can scroll through a song... but the next Preset will have Snapshots of its own (or I have to copy my MIDI settings for ALL Snapshots)

3. The best way is to use Stomp Mode (just make 2 empty Effects out of it), but I never use Stomp Mode because I prefer either Preset- or Snapshot Mode.

 

I'm afraid this can't be done the way I want to.... this is really frustrating.

Does anybody see a solution here (without extra pedals / MIDI controllers)...?

 

BTW, I came by this idea via YouTube:

 

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I just wanted you guys to know that I finally have set up my gear as I wanted: light and easy!

Though I must add I haven’t yet been able to test everything thoroughly - it all seems to work perfectly!

 

- The Helix LT is connected via MIDI cable to my H9, so I can switch the Presets of the H9 using my LT.

- The Helix LT is connected via the CME WIDI MASTER inserted in the H9 (THRU) to my iPad, so I can finally switch songs in OnSong using my Helix! :-)

 

Thanks again, everyone!

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Admittedly I only parsed much of this topic after the first several comments.  But I don't think I've seen anyone point out how USB works.

 

The USB B port is universally meant to connect a "peripheral" device to a computer.  In this case, the Helix is a peripheral device.  It will send data from the USB B port, but you need a computer with device drivers to talk to it...  In fact the computer does the talking for the most part.  It controls the conversation. 

 

Computers have the USB A port, universally meant to receive a connection from a peripheral device.

 

You'll notice that any wireless MIDI device you can buy generally has a USB A port.  Some could have the new USB C connector possibly, but I didn't look.  Regardless, the device can talk over USB, but it's meant to talk to a computer.  It's not meant to talk to another peripheral.

 

You can't take a peripheral device and make it talk directly to another peripheral device.  They don't speak the same language, nor can either control the conversation.   For example, you can't connect the Helix to a Printer.  It wouldn't make any sense anyways even if you could (like if everything had the newer USB C connectors).  Both are made to talk to computers only.

 

In short you can't connect a wireless midi device to your Helix without a computer in between.  Unless Line 6 makes a wireless midi device specifically for this purpose, which can talk to the Helix directly and control the conversation as a computer would, it won't happen.

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3 minutes ago, OmniFace said:

Admittedly I only parsed much of this topic after the first several comments.  But I don't think I've seen anyone point out how USB works.

 

The USB B port is universally meant to connect a "peripheral" device to a computer.  In this case, the Helix is a peripheral device.  It will send data from the USB B port, but you need a computer with device drivers to talk to it...  In fact the computer does the talking for the most part.  It controls the conversation. 

 

Computers have the USB A port, universally meant to receive a connection from a peripheral device.

 

You'll notice that any wireless MIDI device you can buy generally has a USB A port.  Some could have the new USB C connector possibly, but I didn't look.  Regardless, the device can talk over USB, but it's meant to talk to a computer.  It's not meant to talk to another peripheral.

 

You can't take a peripheral device and make it talk directly to another peripheral device.  They don't speak the same language, nor can either control the conversation.   For example, you can't connect the Helix to a Printer.  It wouldn't make any sense anyways even if you could (like if everything had the newer USB C connectors).  Both are made to talk to computers only.

 

In short you can't connect a wireless midi device to your Helix without a computer in between.  Unless Line 6 makes a wireless midi device specifically for this purpose, which can talk to the Helix directly and control the conversation as a computer would, it won't happen.


Thank you for your reaction, @OmniFace, forum user @PierM actually already explained that part to me, but I am glad to see you’re trying to help me out as well! ;-)

 

I am very happy with my current setup, which finally has all the right MIDI connections! 

 

Thanks again!

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Hey @Rezzy777 glad that everything worked out in the end.

 

Was browsing on the WIDI Master site and saw this https://www.cme-pro.com/widi-uhost/ . Wondering if this would allow you to do what you originally wanted (seems like it would)..

 

EDIT: Although it doesn't seem to be available just yet..

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