Powercab HF Trim

[rd2rk]

There was some discussion about this over on TGP, so I'll post my findings here too.

 

I did some more testing, this time using the PC Factory Presets.
My "TEST" preset has 5 snapshots as described in my previous (EDITED) post.
I assigned the Exp Pedal to CC#5 (HF Trim) to make testing easier.

Using a NEW PRESET in Powercab as my default setting, the HF Trim has NO effect in Speaker mode, or in Flat/LF Flat or Flat/LF Raw.
It ONLY affects Flat/FRFR Mode and USER IR Mode.
And, being a GLOBAL setting, it stays the same in EVERY Helix Preset, AND in EVERY Powercab Preset, Factory or NEW.

However, if you use a FACTORY PC PRESET, all bets are off.
In the FLAT STEREO preset, HF Trim affects EVERY Snapshot.
Using a SPEAKER PC Preset, it works the same as a NEW PRESET.
Using a USER IR PC Preset, it works as in the PC FLAT STEREO Preset, affecting ALL Snapshots.

Again, being a Global setting, it remains the same everywhere.

 

Here's my preset if you want to try this out.
 

Panama.hlx

[HotRats73]

This apparently happens only on 212 cabs. The HF driver, under certain conditions, doesn't turn off like is supposed to.

 

The HF Trim is a global parameter but the HD driver is supposed to be on only in Flat Mode/FRFR voicing or User IR Mode.

With Flat Mode/LF Raw & LF Flat voicing and Speaker Mode the HF is supposed to be off.

 

Because of this issue, it can happen that moving from an Helix preset that controls the PC voicings and modes to another preset with different modes/voicings the HF driver remains on resulting in a totally different sounding preset.

 

I've logged a ticket about this a while back but the support, due to covid-19, have been able to test it on a 112 PC and couldn't replicate the issue.

With my 212 I can replicate the bug (?) every single time.

 

 

 

 

[rd2rk]

6 hours ago, HotRats73 said:

Because of this issue, it can happen that moving from an Helix preset that controls the PC voicings and modes to another preset with different modes/voicings the HF driver remains on resulting in a totally different sounding preset.

 

Please post two presets that demonstrate this and I'll try it out.

Since I never bother with the HF Trim in my usage, I've never noticed this, so it would be nice to be able to verify in case my use changes in the future.

When this happens, what PC preset are you on?

[HotRats73]

I don't have helix presets to give you because I never change voicing. my helix presets recall Flat Mode & FRFR voicing or set the cab in user IR mode and recall IRs loaded in the cab.

 

this HF trim issue is something I've noticed by chance while fiddling around.

 

but if you follow my steps you can replicate it too. tomorrow I'll write you a step by step sequence to follow.  

 

I use the l6link and all my helix presets recall the mode/voicing and settings I need so I never use powercab presets unless I'm auditioning things out of curiosity or I'm using the user IR presets I've made for easily auditioning IRs during rehearsals.

 

basically, when I've bought the cab I've modified the stock powercab preset #100 to frfr voicing, renamed it is as "helix remote", changed the led color. later I've moved it to location #000 and deleted all stock presets.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rd2rk]

You've set your default PC Preset to FRFR, same as the Factory FLAT STEREO.

Set it to LF Flat, the same as the NEW PRESET default, and it'll all work as expected in all Helix Modes/Voicings.

The ONLY time I can duplicate ANY of these problems is when the PC Preset is on anything other than LF Flat, and I try to change the Modes/Voicings from Helix.

NO problems with HF Trim settings when changing the Modes/Voicings from Helix when the PC Preset is set to the LF Flat voicing.

NO problems when using Helix Presets that use different Modes/Voicings when the PC Preset is set to LF Flat.

 

My test PANAMA preset with the Exp Pedal set to CC#5 for quick testing proves it EVERY time!

I duplicated that preset 5 times with different Snapshots set to different Modes/Voicings as defaults, no matter what Mode/Voicings are sent, no matter how many times I switch the Helix Presets, or switch the Snapshots within them, the HF Trim ONLY affects those Modes/Voicings that it's SUPPOSED to affect, turning it OFF/ON as expected for the Mode/Voicing, AS LONG AS THE PC PRESET IS SET TO LF FLAT!

 

I don't know WHY it works that way, maybe it shouldn't, but it is what it is.

There MAY be faulty PC212s out there, but mine is not one of them, and it's hard to believe (though not impossible) that you got two bad ones in a row.

 

I'll certainly try your step by step instructions to try to duplicate the problem, in case I'm just not getting it, but I'm 99.999% sure it'll all come back to setting the PC Preset to LF Flat, or NOT changing the Modes/Voicings from Helix when using a PC Preset set to other than LF Flat.

 

 

 

[HotRats73]

I've done my tests and you're right the HF trim works wrong only if a preset with FRFR voicing is selected on the powercab, good catch.

This is obviously a bug because there's no reason for the cab to behave differently depending on what preset was loaded in the cab.

 

I'll tell that to the support to help them sort it out.

 

 

 

 

[alezzblezz]

On 2/18/2021 at 2:46 PM, HotRats73 said:

Because of this issue, it can happen that moving from an Helix preset that controls the PC voicings and modes to another preset with different modes/voicings the HF driver remains on resulting in a totally different sounding preset.

 

I have the same issue on my PC212+ (HF driver remaining ON while using speaker emulation with "FLAT STEREO" preset). While this behaviour isn't correct, this "bug" should be a new functionnality to add to next firmware. Indeed, speaker emulation comes to life with the HF driver activated !

[amsdenj]

On 2/18/2021 at 12:14 AM, rd2rk said:

There was some discussion about this over on TGP, so I'll post my findings here too.

 

I did some more testing, this time using the PC Factory Presets.
My "TEST" preset has 5 snapshots as described in my previous (EDITED) post.
I assigned the Exp Pedal to CC#5 (HF Trim) to make testing easier.

Using a NEW PRESET in Powercab as my default setting, the HF Trim has NO effect in Speaker mode, or in Flat/LF Flat or Flat/LF Raw.
It ONLY affects Flat/FRFR Mode and USER IR Mode.
And, being a GLOBAL setting, it stays the same in EVERY Helix Preset, AND in EVERY Powercab Preset, Factory or NEW.

However, if you use a FACTORY PC PRESET, all bets are off.
In the FLAT STEREO preset, HF Trim affects EVERY Snapshot.
Using a SPEAKER PC Preset, it works the same as a NEW PRESET.
Using a USER IR PC Preset, it works as in the PC FLAT STEREO Preset, affecting ALL Snapshots.

Again, being a Global setting, it remains the same everywhere.

 

Here's my preset if you want to try this out.
 

Panama.hlx 21.91 kB · 1 download

Perhaps the difference depends on how the patches are edited. The 212 HF driver bug is that the changing Mode and Voicing using HX Edit or Helix does not effect both left and right HF drivers. If you make all the changes directly on the Powercab, you will find that the HF Compression Driver is only on in Flat:FRFR or IR modes.

 

[PerS]

Hi rd2rk

Don’t beat yourself up on this… to be honest, we don’t really know the correct answer. Except what we can make a qualified guess on it, but still, only Line6 have the answer… and I think they have had a lot of opportunities to “correct you” and let us know how we should interpret what’s in the manual and how we should expect the PC to behave.  

• Page 10 - “Each speaker is comprised of a 12" low frequency driver, with a 1" high frequency compression driver mounted in a coaxial configuration.”
• Page 10 - “An added benefit is that these models provide a variety of speaker tones that can still be captured through a microphone at any placement, thanks to the coaxial speaker system design.”
• Page 10 - “Powercab 112 includes the first six speaker models in the list below, as well as HF OFF / Natural”
• Page 13 - “Intended to respond like a real guitar speaker for a traditional "amp-in-the-room" experience. This mode applies different tonal characteristics of the selected speaker model to the system's coaxial driver, with the following adjustable parameters.”

“coaxial configuration”, “coaxial speaker system design”, “HF OFF/Natural”, “model to the system's coaxial driver”… hard to say what they mean.

They use different way to describe things without declare it with a conclusion. The interpretation of it depends on “which glasses” you wear for the day… I have red yours and amsdenj conversations and my own conclusion is that we will not know until (1) Line6 come with an explanation and (2) come with an update (probably both HX and PC firmware/edit) that streamlines the operation and eg give better control over L6 Link. Preferably describe what behavior to expect and use the same “wording” for the same thing.

 

Eg, for myself (have the PC+ 112) – I have not had much luck with the “amp in the room speakers” (no Cab in the preset, even tried the Neutral, but didn’t like it), and I did invest time on it in the beginning. Now I only use Flat/FRFR mode (3.50 update of the Cab’s really did it). A week ago, amsdenj proposed to use LF Raw without Cab’s in the preset. I tried this a couple of days ago and that was a very positive experience… (had only tried it with Cab’s in the preset before, both LF Flat and LF Raw, no success), thanks for that recommendation. Will do further testing, but looks like a winner :-)

 

So rd2rk, don’t update all your post… I guess the statement in this everyone will be read and commented on it (maybe the TGP “future of Powercab” thread if necessary). With some lock even Line6 :-). If you or amsdenj makes a post I always read them, I learn something every time. And so do others.

 

Take care //Per

[rd2rk]

On 1/14/2023 at 3:52 PM, amsdenj said:

Perhaps the difference depends on how the patches are edited. The 212 HF driver bug is that the changing Mode and Voicing using HX Edit or Helix does not effect both left and right HF drivers. If you make all the changes directly on the Powercab, you will find that the HF Compression Driver is only on in Flat:FRFR or IR modes.

 

 

So, I repeated the tests I did 2 years ago. You're right, and I was right, the HF driver only functions in Flat and User IR modes.

Whatever it was that was causing my problem this week, it was not that.

Since I never use L6 Link control (always MIDI) it wasn't the link bug either.

I'm putting it down to temporary insanity. :-P

[rd2rk]

@PerS- see my reply to @amsdenj, and thanks for the kind words!