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Gain Block vs Vol Block vs Output Level


themetallikid
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How do these differ when trying to boost leads.  I'm redoing my presets and trying to boost leads and I have everything from -1.5db (cleanest preset lead) to +7.5db (heaviest, most compressed signal) in the gain blocks at the end of my chain.

 

However, I'm using my Xair18's input meter to help guage lead boosts to make sure they arent over the top meter wise as we dont get together for practice much for me to judge this in a live band context (meters get me close enough for finer adjustments post gig)....and the difference in the what the Xair is getting at a comparative +7.0db from Gain Block vs Output level is quite drastic.  

 

Is there a reason why?  



(Yes I get the use your ears and all is fine argument) I dont see why they'd be different, they are next to each other in the chain (gain blocks are right before output and both are 'db' adjustments

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I've re-read your posts about six times and I'm still struggling to understand what you're asking...but I kind of think I may understand.  When comparing signal levels on your mixer, it takes a gain adjustment of +7.5 db on a heavier, compressed signal to achieve the signal level you get on a clean signal with just a minor amount of increase in the gain block.  If that's what you're talking about that's quite normal because you're battling with compression which will naturally inhibit the signal level peaks.  The gain block doesn't take that into account, it just increases the amplification by the amount specified.  Your signal meter represents the actual value of how much it's been increased.

This is where you'll have to rely more on your ears than your signal meter because even though the signal isn't increasing as much when the amplification is increased, the sound is actually "beefier" due to the compression which will make it naturally stand out.  To be honest, I don't really rely on my signal meters to tell me how much increase I have on a signal like that, just my ears.  Does it SOUND louder, because that will make it stand out.  In this case in particular the change in tone is very often more important than the change in signal strength.

The other part of that is really about band discipline.  Just like when someone is singing, when a lead kicks in the band needs to pull back (get less busy/less aggressive) just a little to allow the lead or the voice to be more dominant in the mix.  With a lead bear in mind this is a lot easier because the sound floor is reduced to a certain degree by your rhythm playing going missing in the mix while you replace it with a lead line.

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15 hours ago, phil_m said:

Are you using a stereo Gain block?

No/Maybe - not sure how it would matter.  The end of my chain goes Stereo Delay (just to have a stereo block to separate signal L/R) > Split (Paths are 100 seperated here) > Gain Block (can't recall if its a stereo or mono Gain block here off hand) > separate outs (both set to 0.0db).

 

Would a stereo vs mono gain block make a difference in the output?  

 

6 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

I've re-read your posts about six times and I'm still struggling to understand what you're asking...but I kind of think I may understand.  When comparing signal levels on your mixer, it takes a gain adjustment of +7.5 db on a heavier, compressed signal to achieve the signal level you get on a clean signal with just a minor amount of increase in the gain block.  If that's what you're talking about that's quite normal because you're battling with compression which will naturally inhibit the signal level peaks.  The gain block doesn't take that into account, it just increases the amplification by the amount specified.  Your signal meter represents the actual value of how much it's been increased.

This is where you'll have to rely more on your ears than your signal meter because even though the signal isn't increasing as much when the amplification is increased, the sound is actually "beefier" due to the compression which will make it naturally stand out.  To be honest, I don't really rely on my signal meters to tell me how much increase I have on a signal like that, just my ears.  Does it SOUND louder, because that will make it stand out.  In this case in particular the change in tone is very often more important than the change in signal strength.

The other part of that is really about band discipline.  Just like when someone is singing, when a lead kicks in the band needs to pull back (get less busy/less aggressive) just a little to allow the lead or the voice to be more dominant in the mix.  With a lead bear in mind this is a lot easier because the sound floor is reduced to a certain degree by your rhythm playing going missing in the mix while you replace it with a lead line.

Not really, the easiest way I can try and describe this is this way maybe:

 

-Presets (rhythm/base) are designed around output level of 0.0db

-Rhythm presets 'average' around -10db on my mixers input meter (just the number we like for headroom etc)

-Lead boosts (because we dont have a sound guy) I try to have them spike around -5db on the input meter, but 'average' between -10 and -5db.

 

What I have been doing is using Gain Blocks at the end of each L/R out on path 2 to boost my output going to the board.  The 'boost' needed based on the type of sound (clean being more dynamic/less compressed needs less boost than my heavy modern sound) ranges from -1.5db (clean sound) to +7.5db (modern heavy sound). 

 

Now, given that last paragraph, I decided to eliminate the Gain Blocks (still need one on path 2b to keep the additional path to output, though it is bypassed, merely a placeholder) and make the adjustments on the preset's output level instead.  When I matched the gain blocks output setting to the presets output setting, it was greatly different results.  My clean didnt actually need a cut or boost (just the additional OD I added was enough to give it a boost), my low-medium gain sounds all needed about 2-2.5db boost and my heavier sounds needed a 3.0 maybe 3.2db boost.   

 

Why is there such a different between the methods?  When I put the +7.5db boost on the preset output level, it drove my mixers input meter to around +3db vs. the -7.5db level I was getting using the gain block approach.  

 

Do the Gain blocks do something different that I'm not noticing? Also seemed to introduce some additional noise to my sound when using the gain block strategy.  

 

I get do what 'sounds' right, more just trying to increase my understanding of what is happening.

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+7.5dB are the same, doesnt matter if in a gain block or at the output level. What's change is the tone, IF that gain is placed BEFORE something else (like an amp), or at the very end of a chain. This is because a gain does drive the input of what's coming after, changing its response, while the output level, it's just to set the final output.

 

A +7.5dB gain block, placed at the end of a chain, does exactly the same thing as setting +7.5dB at the output level. This is a pretty meaningless use of a gain block.

 

Now, the difference in Helix are;

 

Volume Block; Does NOT drive anything. It's just a passive volume pedal acting on the passing through signal, fading from 0 to 100%.

Gain Block; Does boost the signal, in a range from -120 to +12dB

Output Level; Does set the final output, in a range from -120 to +20dB

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5 minutes ago, themetallikid said:

No/Maybe - not sure how it would matter.  The end of my chain goes Stereo Delay (just to have a stereo block to separate signal L/R) > Split (Paths are 100 seperated here) > Gain Block (can't recall if its a stereo or mono Gain block here off hand) > separate outs (both set to 0.0db).

 

Would a stereo vs mono gain block make a difference in the output?  

 

Not really, the easiest way I can try and describe this is this way maybe:

 

-Presets (rhythm/base) are designed around output level of 0.0db

-Rhythm presets 'average' around -10db on my mixers input meter (just the number we like for headroom etc)

-Lead boosts (because we dont have a sound guy) I try to have them spike around -5db on the input meter, but 'average' between -10 and -5db.

 

What I have been doing is using Gain Blocks at the end of each L/R out on path 2 to boost my output going to the board.  The 'boost' needed based on the type of sound (clean being more dynamic/less compressed needs less boost than my heavy modern sound) ranges from -1.5db (clean sound) to +7.5db (modern heavy sound). 

 

Now, given that last paragraph, I decided to eliminate the Gain Blocks (still need one on path 2b to keep the additional path to output, though it is bypassed, merely a placeholder) and make the adjustments on the preset's output level instead.  When I matched the gain blocks output setting to the presets output setting, it was greatly different results.  My clean didnt actually need a cut or boost (just the additional OD I added was enough to give it a boost), my low-medium gain sounds all needed about 2-2.5db boost and my heavier sounds needed a 3.0 maybe 3.2db boost.   

 

Why is there such a different between the methods?  When I put the +7.5db boost on the preset output level, it drove my mixers input meter to around +3db vs. the -7.5db level I was getting using the gain block approach.  

 

Do the Gain blocks do something different that I'm not noticing? Also seemed to introduce some additional noise to my sound when using the gain block strategy.  

 

I get do what 'sounds' right, more just trying to increase my understanding of what is happening.

 

It's as I was describing before.  Whether it's the gain block or the output level block, they're both just increasing the amount of amplification without any regard to the amount of compression or distortion in the signal itself.  Therefore, the more compressed the signal is, the more you would need to amplify it in order to get similar results with a cleaner, less compressed signal on a signal meter.  But that's where your ears come into play.  The very nature of the compressed signal, especially if it's tone has changed, will often stand out from the background mix even though it doesn't move the signal meter as much.

You can see the results of this if you place a LA Studio Compressor at the end of your chain with a peak reduction around 7 or 8 and watch what happens to your signal meter when the Mix parameter is at 100 and when it's at 50 because the peaks start coming through.

Bear in mind that all of the sound at the mixer is accumulative.  A single guitar will not sound as loud to the human ear as a whole band playing at the same fader/signal levels.  When you stop playing rhythm the overall background volume of the band drops, and you're replacing that drop with a lead signal.  That lead signal is no longer competing with the whole band's sound so it very possibly could stand out with less boost than you think...especially if the tone is different.

I only bring this stuff up because this is where the science of signal level and the practical nature of sound pressure level (SPL) diverge and why you have to use your ears rather than your eyes to get a fix on how that lead will sit in the mix.

The bottom line is the behavior of the Helix is definitely in line with how signals are affected in the analog world, so there's nothing wrong with how it's being done.  It's just one of those cases in which your eyes can deceive you but your ears won't.

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12 minutes ago, PierM said:

Very confused question, I also dont understand.

 

+7.5dB are the same, doesnt matter if in a gain block or at the output level. What's change is the tone, IF that gain is placed BEFORE something else (like an amp), or at the very end of a chain. This is because a gain does drive an input, changing its response, while the output level, it's just to set the final output.

 

A +7.5dB gain block, placed at the end of a chain, does exactly the same thing as setting +7.5dB at the output level. This is a pretty meaningless use of a gain block.

 

Now, the difference in Helix are;

 

Volume Block; Does NOT drive anything. It's just a passive volume pedal acting on the passing through signal, fading from 0 to 100%.

Gain Block; Does boost the signal, in a range from -120 to +12dB

Output Level; Does set the final output, in a range from -120 to +20dB

Its not a meaningless use of a gain block....I need to have a block on path 2b in order for me to have the separate outputs L/R.  There isnt a way to bring the signal path down to get a 2nd output unless you have a block there.  The Gain block is one of the least DSP intensive, so it wins.  I thought as long as I have to have that block down there to split the path....why not use it as well for my Lead boosts.

 

I get that 7.5db is 7.5db no matter where it is coming from....but if I had the ability to screen shot the different in using +7.5db in the gain blocks on each path vs +7.5db on the output level for the preset,....there is a difference.  Unless the use of stereo vs. mono blocks is doing something here because the outputs are panned 100% L/R that I'm only getting half the boost i'm seeing in the Gain block setting which would make sense then that the +7.5db in the gain block is equivalent (at my mixers input) of +3.2db on the preset output level.   

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2 minutes ago, DunedinDragon said:

 

It's as I was describing before.  Whether it's the gain block or the output level block, they're both just increasing the amount of amplification without any regard to the amount of compression or distortion in the signal itself.  Therefore, the more compressed the signal is, the more you would need to amplify it in order to get similar results with a cleaner, less compressed signal on a signal meter.  But that's where your ears come into play.  The very nature of the compressed signal, especially if it's tone has changed, will often stand out from the background mix even though it doesn't move the signal meter as much.

You can see the results of this if you place a LA Studio Compressor at the end of your chain with a peak reduction around 7 or 8 and watch what happens to your signal meter when the Mix parameter is at 100 and when it's at 50 because the peaks start coming through.

Bear in mind that all of the sound at the mixer is accumulative.  A single guitar will not sound as loud to the human ear as a whole band playing at the same fader/signal levels.  When you stop playing rhythm the overall background volume of the band drops, and you're replacing that drop with a lead signal.  That lead signal is no longer competing with the whole band's sound so it very possibly could stand out with less boost than you think...especially if the tone is different.

I only bring this stuff up because this is where the science of signal level and the practical nature of sound pressure level (SPL) diverge and why you have to use your ears rather than your eyes to get a fix on how that lead will sit in the mix.

The bottom line is the behavior of the Helix is definitely in line with how signals are affected in the analog world, so there's nothing wrong with how it's being done.  It's just one of those cases in which your eyes can deceive you but your ears won't.

I get what your saying, but i'm not arguing the compressed vs dynamic aspect of tones, i understand that stuff.  I'm merely asking why do I get a different output level (input level at my mixer) when i do the 7.5db boost in the gain blocks vs 7.5db boost on the preset output level.  

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11 minutes ago, themetallikid said:

Its not a meaningless use of a gain block....I need to have a block on path 2b in order for me to have the separate outputs L/R.  There isnt a way to bring the signal path down to get a 2nd output unless you have a block there.  The Gain block is one of the least DSP intensive, so it wins.  I thought as long as I have to have that block down there to split the path....why not use it as well for my Lead boosts.

 

I get that 7.5db is 7.5db no matter where it is coming from....but if I had the ability to screen shot the different in using +7.5db in the gain blocks on each path vs +7.5db on the output level for the preset,....there is a difference.  Unless the use of stereo vs. mono blocks is doing something here because the outputs are panned 100% L/R that I'm only getting half the boost i'm seeing in the Gain block setting which would make sense then that the +7.5db in the gain block is equivalent (at my mixers input) of +3.2db on the preset output level.   

 

Of course what you are expecting isnt happening because something in that preset needs a change. Hard to tell what it is, just talking about it. We can only guess, like the mono vs stereo gain block, misplaced in a stereo/mono path.

 

Post the preset here, so people can tell you what's going on.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, themetallikid said:

I get what your saying, but i'm not arguing the compressed vs dynamic aspect of tones, i understand that stuff.  I'm merely asking why do I get a different output level (input level at my mixer) when i do the 7.5db boost in the gain blocks vs 7.5db boost on the preset output level.  

 

Ahhh...now I see what you're getting at.  That's a good question and, just guessing here, it could simply come down to what kind of algorithm and computation they used to achieve the digital representation of amplification or db increase given that both are still working on digital representations and nothing is analog yet, and assuming all other things in your signal chain are equal.

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22 minutes ago, DunedinDragon said:

 

Ahhh...now I see what you're getting at.  That's a good question and, just guessing here, it could simply come down to what kind of algorithm and computation they used to achieve the digital representation of amplification or db increase given that both are still working on digital representations and nothing is analog yet, and assuming all other things in your signal chain are equal.

yeah this is my first delving into splitting my signal to send seperate L/R to the board.  So i'm wondering if the Stereo Gain Block is the culprit because the outputs are panned and its only sending out 'half' of that signal.  

 

34 minutes ago, PierM said:

 

Of course what you are expecting isnt happening because something in that preset needs a change. Hard to tell what it is, just talking about it. We can only guess, like the mono vs stereo gain block, misplaced in a stereo/mono path.

 

Post the preset here, so people can tell you what's going on.

 

 

I dont need to post the preset, the preset it self is fine and functions as I want.  Its merely the boosting of the 'lead version' of my rhythm sound.  Which is only comparing the Gain block vs preset output being the pieces in motion.  My preset has no effect on what is happening because its across 6 of my presets.  

 

If you want to test it, its pretty simple to recreate.  I'll troubleshoot when I go home on lunch and see if the 'stereo' block is whats causing that difference.

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