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External boost pedals and clipping (in 3.0+)


StormJH1
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After many months of using the Stomp by itself, I'm finally getting to work on committing to a "permanent" pedalboard setup with MIDI, footswitches, and an expression pedal.  But one of the things I am also hoping to do is to run 2 or 3 drive or boost pedals in front of the Stomp.  I was wondering if anyone had some tips, or do's & don't's when it comes to using boost pedals in front of Helix.


One of my favorite sounds on a tube amp is the saturation of a boost pedal slamming the front end of the amp, as opposed to a traditional overdrive or distortion where the gain is created within the pedal itself.  In theory, Helix models should be designed to handle this and behave similarly to a real-life amp.

 

But I also know that we have this input clipping meter now, and I noticed while experimenting with my JHS Clover (which is essentially a BOSS FA-1 mod offering clean boost) that the input indicator was turning red pretty quickly.  My question is: does this mean that digital clipping is occurring and, if so, is that something that I need to avoid at all costs?  I thought the Clover seemed to work pretty well with mostly clean amp models (like a Twin, Deluxe, or JC120), but I've had issues with other modelers in the past that do not like it when you throw a lot of output into them.  

Do any of you use boost pedals along with Helix, or is that only something you would do with internal Helix blocks?  Any other suggestions on chain placement, etc?  Thanks!

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10 minutes ago, StormJH1 said:

we have this input clipping meter now, and I noticed while experimenting with my JHS Clover (which is essentially a BOSS FA-1 mod offering clean boost) that the input indicator was turning red pretty quickly.  My question is: does this mean that digital clipping is occurring and, if so, is that something that I need to avoid at all costs? 

 

I don't know if it's digital or not, but RED ALWAYS means STOP!

Turn down the output from the pedal.

 

13 minutes ago, StormJH1 said:

Do any of you use boost pedals along with Helix, or is that only something you would do with internal Helix blocks? 

 

Unless you have a favorite drive pedal that the HXS just doesn't satisfactorily emulate, what's the point of a MIDI controlled pedal board if you add pedals that aren't MIDI controlled?

Of course, you could add a MIDI controlled Loop Switcher. But that adds complexity and size to the board. And cables and power supplies and noise....

 

Also, while some people put such pedals in an HXS loop, it's a crap shoot whether they'll sound good, and often just serve to amplify the small amount of noise that using a Loop can add.

 

Lastly, anytime you put something in a loop, it adds a small amount of latency (2-3ms) for the additional DA/AD conversion. It's not much, but if you put digital FX in a loop, each one adds another 2-3ms. It adds up.

 

Last lastly, at the point where you're adding pedals because you're running out of blocks, and Loop Switchers and MIDI controllers and expression pedals, you might well consider how much you're spending. It just might be time for an LT or Floor to replace the Stomp. How much do you REALLY NEED that VERY SPECIAL dirt pedal?

 

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Interesting, okay thanks.  Red means stop - I learn so much from these forums, haha!

 

Not sure if you were following what I meant on the MIDI setup - that was simply a few bypass switches for effects blocks.  The point of adding the switches was actually to offer more control over the Helix itself, not any external pedals.  

 

Agree that drive effects in the loop is not a great idea with Stomp, I was getting quite a bit of hissing/noise when I tried that.  In my case, these are pedals I already had when I bought Stomp.  (Buying Stomp actually prompted me to sell dozens of others!)  But there are a few drive pedals that I do like better than the Helix models, so if I have the room for them on a board, why not experiment with them in front of the Helix's signal chain?  It sounds like you are thinking that clean boost pedals simply are not a good pairing for Helix, though, which may be the case.

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2 hours ago, StormJH1 said:

Interesting, okay thanks.  Red means stop - I learn so much from these forums, haha!

 

Since you seemed to think that digital overload was BAD but analog overload was OK.....

If the Input is already overloaded (digital or analog), that makes downstream gain staging much more difficult.

 

2 hours ago, StormJH1 said:

Not sure if you were following what I meant on the MIDI setup - that was simply a few bypass switches for effects blocks.

 

If all you're using midi for is to add switches, great, but midi can be used for a lot more than that, and you weren't specific.

I bought a Helix in part to cut down on board complexity and tap dancing while performing. Adding external pedals, to me, is going backwards. Since midi can be used to re-simplify after doing so, I pointed out some possible cons in that scenario. See my closing remarks below.

 

2 hours ago, StormJH1 said:

But there are a few drive pedals that I do like better than the Helix models, so if I have the room for them on a board, why not experiment with them in front of the Helix's signal chain? 

 

2 hours ago, StormJH1 said:

It sounds like you are thinking that clean boost pedals simply are not a good pairing for Helix, though, which may be the case.

 

Not at all. Just be aware that just as not all OD pedals sound great with all amps, not all boosts/ODs are going to sound great in front of your HXS.

Above is noted because it saves typing later on when you (royal you) come back and say "HXS sucks because it doesn't sound good with my pedals".

Really. It happens a LOT!

 

Keep in mind that when we respond to posters on this forum, we have no idea of your experience level and, unless you're very specific about your goals, we have no idea what you're trying to accomplish. We just do our best to be helpful to fellow users!

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Helix guitar input seems to have been designed to handle a typical double coil pickup played pretty hard. You can test this by using a Helix patch with no blocks and the output level set to 0dB. You'll see that the guitar played hard will push the output pretty close to 0dB. 

 

If you put a pedal between your guitar and Helix input, and crank that pedal level up well above the guitar level, you're going to clip the input and that's not going to sound good. 

 

However the same is not true for the same pedal block in Helix. Once you're into the digital domain, you can push the level of a distortion block pretty much any way you want and not worry about digital clipping as long as the total output stays under 0dB. 

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