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Carvin X1 / Helix LT / SD Power Stage Routing


Chaoschoir
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Hello fellow Line 6 forum members! 
 

Guitar player here going on almost 50 years now and one can say I’m ‘old school’ in that I’ve always used pedal effects in front of my amplifier and have never used the effects and send routing methods.

 

Recently my setup has been using a Carvin X1 preamp unit going into a Seymour Duncan Power Stage 170 into a Carvin 1X12 extension cabinet. Currently I’m plugging my guitar directly in to the Helix LT and then output from Helix to the input on the X1. I know in this fashion I’m basically using the Helix as a glorified (and expensive!) pedal effects unit. I’m fairly proficient in getting around the LT and creating presets, etc., but I have a question for all you experienced folks on this forum concerning alternative routing.

 

The Carvin X1 does have an effect send / return loop and I wanted to know what benefit, if any, I would achieve by routing the Helix using this method (wanting to still be able to utilize the tube preamp in the X1). And what internal settings on the Helix would I need to change in order to use it this way, if any? 
 

So, basically I would like to plug my guitar straight in to the X1, patch the Helix in to the X1 using the effect / send loop, and then output on the X1 into the SD Power Stage and from there to my Carvin 1 X 12 cabinet. I know it sounds fairly simple enough but I’d just like to know of any tips and / or techniques I might be overlooking for this particular setup.

 

Thank you to all who take the time to read and reply.

 

Be well and stay safe...

Patrick

 


 

 

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I would put the X1 in a Helix FX Loop. By assigning a FS to Bypass the Helix FX Loop you would have the option of using the X1 or any of the Helix preamps/amps. You would assign the same FS as the Loop Bypass to the Helix preamp/amp and save the preset with one on and the other off, depending which one you wanted as the default when the preset loads.

 

Example:

 

Helix amp ON, Loop (X1) OFF

or

Helix amp OFF, Loop (X1) ON

 

This configuration allows you to have Helix FX both before the X1/Helix preamp and after, between the active preamp/amp and the SD.

 

Best of both worlds!

 

Possible drawback would be if the X1 created excessive noise in the Loop, so you may have to experiment with the FX Send/Return Levels (INST or LINE) in Global Settings >Ins/Outs and the actual Send/Return Levels in the FX Loop Block.

 

EDIT: this is a variation on the 4 cable method (4cm). You take the Helix FX Send Out (at INST Level) to the X1 guitar Input, and the X1 Output to the Helix FX Loop Return. Try the X1 FX SEND if you get excessive noise that you can't resolve with the previously mentioned methods. The Helix L/Mono Output goes to the SD.

 

Also be sure to use quality shielded cables in the Loop, not the $5 GC specials that have been laying in the bottom of the assorted cables box for 15 years! :-)

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1 hour ago, rd2rk said:

I would put the X1 in a Helix FX Loop. By assigning a FS to Bypass the Helix FX Loop you would have the option of using the X1 or any of the Helix preamps/amps. You would assign the same FS as the Loop Bypass to the Helix preamp/amp and save the preset with one on and the other off, depending which one you wanted as the default when the preset loads.

 

Example:

 

Helix amp ON, Loop (X1) OFF

or

Helix amp OFF, Loop (X1) ON

 

This configuration allows you to have Helix FX both before the X1/Helix preamp and after, between the active preamp/amp and the SD.

 

Best of both worlds!

 

Possible drawback would be if the X1 created excessive noise in the Loop, so you may have to experiment with the FX Send/Return Levels (INST or LINE) in Global Settings >Ins/Outs and the actual Send/Return Levels in the FX Loop Block.

 

EDIT: this is a variation on the 4 cable method (4cm). You take the Helix FX Send Out (at INST Level) to the X1 guitar Input, and the X1 Output to the Helix FX Loop Return. Try the X1 FX SEND if you get excessive noise that you can't resolve with the previously mentioned methods. The Helix L/Mono Output goes to the SD.

 

Also be sure to use quality shielded cables in the Loop, not the $5 GC specials that have been laying in the bottom of the assorted cables box for 15 years! :-)


rd2rk,

 

THANK YOU for such a detailed explanation! It’s hard for me to think outside the box sometimes and wonderful people such as yourself in forums like this offer tremendous knowledge based on their own experiences (and through trial and error!).
 

I will do what you described and also be aware of any unwanted noise levels (making sure to adjust the INST or LINE settings as needed) and I will most certainly use the quality cables I have on hand! :)

 

Best regards,

Patrick

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1 hour ago, CraigGT said:

Can't you just treat it as a standard 4cm method but use preamp out/ power amp in instead of FX loop send/return.

 

That would preclude using the Helix FX before the X1.

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Using the X1 in a loop allows the option of using either the X1 or Helix amps/preamps alternately on a single footswitch (or snapshots) in a single preset, with pre and post effects for both.

 

I assume that the purpose of the X1's FX loop is to allow having the effects in it's loop to be placed post tone stack, before it's output circuitry, which is not a power amp. Putting  the X1 in a loop allows it's tone stack to be used separately from the Helix amps' tone stacks. IOW, the X1 becomes the equivalent of just another Helix amp option without adding it's own coloration when using only a Helix amp. 

 

It also allows the further option of sticking a bunch of pedals in the X1 FX loop, entirely separate from the Helix signal chain, or using a second Helix loop for discrete placement of Helix effects in the X1's loop.

 

It also allows the the Helix impedance circuitry to affect those Helix effects which are sensitive to that (primarily fuzzes) in the way that the Helix designers intended.

 

In short, it just increases the number of options available to the discerning (obsessive?) Tone Hound, which keeps us busy trying to troubleshoot their Rube Goldberg rigs. :-)

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Hey CraigGT,

 

Thanks for adding to the conversation and inquiring as to what rd2rk mentioned and thank you again rd2rk for really breaking down the possibilities in using the routing method you described in such great detail. :)

 

All the best,

Patrick

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If I was going to us the Carvin X1 preamp, I would use it as a traditional amp and 4 cable method.  That is:

 

guitar -> HX [ compressor, distortion pedal(s) ...] HX effects send 1 -> X1 input ... X1 mono send -> HX return 1 [ impulse response, volume, delay(s), reverb(s)]  HX left out -> PS170 -> cabinet.

 

I would not use the speaker out on the Carvin X1.  I don't think it would add anything.

 

BUT

 

The Helix has such fabulous preamps and amps that I would only go live with the Helix to front of house.  If you only want one sound based around the X1, then the solution above would work great..

 

These days, I go Guitar -> Helix -> Mixer and monitor with in-ears.   If I really want stage volume or to feel the air behind me, I'll put a powercab + 112 or 2 there.    I almost always use the powercabs at home for practice.  Sometimes I use Line 6 DT25 amps after the Helix just so I can remember what tube amps sounds like (to me exactly just like the powercabs...  Ha!)   The think I love about using the DT25 amps for my power stage is that I can use different topologies.  It's amazing the options available.

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Hello bobcoss!

 

I have a question concerning your comment - I would not use the speaker out on the Carvin X1.  I don't think it would add anything.”

 

What would the difference / benefit be in using the send on the X1 rather than the output? As this is all fairly new to me, I’m open to any and all suggestions!
 

I’ll be away until Sunday so I won’t be able to try what you suggested until I get back but I truly appreciate all the feedback and replies from all of you kind folks.

 

And yes CraigGT, it is indeed a rabbit hole! Whenever I’m experimenting with the Helix I glance at the clock on the wall and say to myself - Surely I haven’t been doing this for five hours straight now, have I? :)

 

All the best,

Patrick

 

 

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4 hours ago, bobcoss said:

I would not use the speaker out on the Carvin X1.  I don't think it would add anything.

 

The X1 is a PreAmp. It does not have a Speaker out. A full blown Amp (which has a Power Amp and Speaker Out), has the FX loop between the Preamp and the Power amp. The X1, having no Power Amp, puts the FX Loop between the X1 Tone Stack and the X1 Preamp circuitry. Without using the X1 Preamp Out, all you get is another Tone Stack and the potential for a bunch of extra noise.. If OP likes the sound of the X1, that's what he likes about it (the sound of the full Preamp), and that's what it ADDS.

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rd2rk,

 

You hit the nail on the head! The main reason for my post was to learn how to utilize the X1’s preamp with the Helix in the best possible manner.
***EDIT*** Although the X1 does have a speaker out jack (1 watt mind you), when I first began using this setup, the actual output jack of the X1 was always routed to the input of the SD Power Stage.

 

Patrick

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My comments were based on reviewing the specs for the Carvin X1 not on any practical experience.  I noticed it has a 1 watt speaker output to drive a cabinet, and a line level preamp out.  That's what I was referring too.    I don't know what the X1 does in their 1 watt power amp section that could add to the sound.  Some amps do have some interaction with the preamp, and the power amp, and my understanding about "presence" is that it typically affects the power amp section on a tube amplifier.  In this preamp model, it might not be the case and should be easy enough to figure out.   I don't know enough about the difference between line out power levels vs. 1 watt of output so I don't know what would happen if you take that 1 watt out and go into the HXE or Helix as input.  Might not do anything, but I personally wouldn't try it.

 

Regardless.  HXE is very powerful, and should marry well with the X1.

 

I've used my HXE with several amps in 4CM, and it works very well.   I got some very memorable tones from my HXE and DT25 amp in 4CM.  I would have gone that route all the time except it's heavy and a hassle to setup.

 

My biggest wish for Line6 would be to expand the digital connection concept of Line6 Link to be bi directional so I could plug in something like the HXE to a Line 6 amp, and be able to do 4 cable method type configurations with just one cable.   Just dreaming.....

 

 

 

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