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Using HX Effects with HX Stomp in Stereo


ericcalvert
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I currently have a hx stomp and I really enjoy the sounds I get with it.  One of my favorite features is that I can run dual amps and IR’s which has a great stereo spread.  The problem is when I do that, I run out of dsp for any effects.  What I would like to do is get an hx effects to pair with it so the stomp can run dual amps and the effects will do all other effects needed.  The thing is, I would like to be able to run some of the effects from the hx effects before the stereo amps in the stomp (drives, comps, wah, etc.) and run other effects from the hx effects after my dual amps from the stomp (mod, delay, reverb).  I would also like to continue to use my hx stomps outputs as my interface to my monitors.  I can’t wrap my head around how to route this to make it work.  Is it even possible?

 

thanks for any help!

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You've just discovered that you need a full sized Helix. While you can put a HXFX in the FX Loop of the HXS, you're adding the latency of the additional DA/AD conversion (twice if you use both loops), and you still don't have as much DSP as if you had the full sized Helix. Also, by the time you put it all on a pedalboard with the two big Power Supplies and an Exp Pedal (and all those extra cable failure points), how much room have you saved over the full sized Helix? Nor have you saved much money.

 

Get the full sized Helix, you'll be happier down the road. Unless you live on the edge of civilization, you'll have no trouble selling the HXS. If you haven't had it long (but too long to return it), remember that the warranty is transferable.

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How much of a problem is this latency? I mean, this would apply to any digital pedal that has to do DA/AD conversion, right? I have a Helix and an HX Effects. I started having the FX in one of the loops of the Helix, but then liked them in series a whole lot more. Not sure if it was due to the latency issue you mention.

 

Not doubting your take, but I'm interested in other opinions about outboard loop latency with digital boxes. Thanks.

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Each round-trip AD/DA conversion is around 2.5ms. Helix through latency is, IIRC, <2ms. Add the number of conversions +2 for your total latency.

IOW - guitar>Helix>amp - one AD/DA conversion + 2ms = <>4.5ms.

There's a paper out there somewhere in which they researched people's ability to detect audio latency. 10ms was the threshold for DETECTION, approximately 20ms before it became a bother. The number was lower for singers and horn players due to bone conduction. Also, Steve Vai can detect 2ms. :-)

 

Latency affects the FEEL of playing the guitar. If you're a shredder playing 99 notes per second, it's more likely going to bother you more than someone playing soulful blues.

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5 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

Each round-trip AD/DA conversion is around 2.5ms.

If I may. I was having issues with running the preamp of my amp in 4CM in parallel with a Helix amp model and the issue was latency of the FX Loop. After some testing with a correlation detection plugin in Reaper, I figured out the round trip latency of the FX Loop was around 1.8 ms. Not claiming this as indisputable objective fact, but putting two Simple Delay blocks (one at 1 ms, the other 0.8, since 1.8 ms is not a delay time that exists on any delay block) on the path with the amp model solved the problem completely, at least subjectively. Not sure if the rest of the I/O has the same latency characteristics, but I'm also not sure why they wouldn't. 

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36 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

Each round-trip AD/DA conversion is around 2.5ms. Helix through latency is, IIRC, <2ms. Add the number of conversions +2 for your total latency.

IOW - guitar>Helix>amp - one AD/DA conversion + 2ms = <>4.5ms.

There's a paper out there somewhere in which they researched people's ability to detect audio latency. 10ms was the threshold for DETECTION, approximately 20ms before it became a bother. The number was lower for singers and horn players due to bone conduction. Also, Steve Vai can detect 2ms. :-)

 

Latency affects the FEEL of playing the guitar. If you're a shredder playing 99 notes per second, it's more likely going to bother you more than someone playing soulful blues.


Great explanation, thanks! So I guess the number of digital pedals chained together will affect this, unless they have analogue dry thru, yeah? (And, if they have that'd get cancelled at 100%, correct?. Yes I know about Steve's problems with the Axe and conversion to Synergy, it's what you get when living in the fast and Zen lane!

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43 minutes ago, zappazapper said:

If I may. I was having issues with running the preamp of my amp in 4CM in parallel with a Helix amp model and the issue was latency of the FX Loop. After some testing with a correlation detection plugin in Reaper, I figured out the round trip latency of the FX Loop was around 1.8 ms. Not claiming this as indisputable objective fact, but putting two Simple Delay blocks (one at 1 ms, the other 0.8, since 1.8 ms is not a delay time that exists on any delay block) on the path with the amp model solved the problem completely, at least subjectively. Not sure if the rest of the I/O has the same latency characteristics, but I'm also not sure why they wouldn't. 

 

2.5ms is one of those "generally quoted" numbers. It wouldn't make me sad if you were right about it being 1.8ms. I've never measured, as the only thing I use the FX loops for is 4cm on those rare occasions when I break out a tube amp for nostalgia's sake. :-)

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32 minutes ago, StaccoP2P said:

Yes I know about Steve's problems with the Axe and conversion to Synergy, it's what you get when living in the fast and Zen lane!

 

But he sure can play guitar!

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