Amp Model Volume

[mrvander]

Is the channel volume modeled as well so it behaves as if it were that amp or is it truly just a unmodeled channel volume so we can level patches as line 6 users?

[gtrman100]

The channel volume is modeled but since it has no effect on tone, use it to level your preset volumes with no worries.

[mrvander]

19 hours ago, gtrman100 said:

 The channel volume is modeled but since it has no effect on tone, use it to level your preset volumes with no worries.

 

Really? I thought that was likely true for some models but there must certainly be amps where the power amp portion of the chain still has an effect on tone? Admittedly, I don't know much about tube amps - just what I've gleaned from watching various gee-tar u-tubers.

[gtrman100]

You might be confusing Master volume with Channel volume. Master volume is modeled from tube amp circuits, and Channel volume is a control modelers use to level preset volume

 

[mrvander]

On 6/5/2021 at 5:41 PM, gtrman100 said:

You might be confusing Master volume with Channel volume. Master volume is modeled from tube amp circuits, and Channel volume is a control modelers use to level preset volume

 

 

I might be. To correct myself, I said POWER amp in my post above which was a mistake, channel volume is in the preamp circuit.

 

My understanding is that Master Volume controls overall Line 6 amp volume, NOT the model. It's not present in any editable parameter of any model and only exists on the amp and controls overall volume everything after the model has been "processed". Thus the Master volume is not modelled. It's simply part of the line 6 amp circuitry so you can play any tone at any volume level.

 

Meanwhile, Channel volume IS present in each Amp model, hence my question if it was actually modeled to behave like the amp it's modeling OR if it's just there to level volume between different patches. Granted, that is the original intent of channel volume on ANY amp, but since it's present in the PREAMP phase of the circuit, it has an effect on tone. Is that effect on tone modeled or not?

 

[PaulTBaker]

I believe you are incorrect.  If I am reading what you are saying.  The Master volume for the amp controls how much distortion from the power amp vs the preamp... at 10, more from the amp, lower is more from the preamp.  

 

I may be doing it wrong, but I use the Master volume to set the sound, and the channel volume to match volume levels between patches.  

 

[mrvander]

59 minutes ago, PaulTBaker said:

I believe you are incorrect.  If I am reading what you are saying.  The Master volume for the amp controls how much distortion from the power amp vs the preamp... at 10, more from the amp, lower is more from the preamp.  

 

I may be doing it wrong, but I use the Master volume to set the sound, and the channel volume to match volume levels between patches.  

 

 

Master volume has zero effect on distortion or gain in a solid state amp such as the Spider. It's simply the amount of amplification of the entire signal chain, applied at the very end before output to the speaker (that's the job of the power amp). It has nothing to do with the modeled amps and only is part of the actual physical Line 6 amplifier. The Master volume is taken completely out of the signal chain when using the Balanced outputs.

 

But we're getting away from the original question: is the CHANNEL volume of each amp type MODELED or not?

[Stewartcmiller]

I tend to agree with the previous post.

 

ie that the master volume has zero effect on the tone but just regulates the overall volume. Ie I turn this down at night when needing to play at lower volumes and it doesn’t affect distortion or any of the other parameters.

 

I use channel volume to try to level the volume between presets and the different amps I use in different presets. I don’t think this is modeled as I haven’t noticed a change in distortion etc when changing this. Changing drive for example on the modeled amps however does have an impact on the sound.

[PaulTBaker]

Ok, are we saying the Master volume is the BIG knob on the helix or the Master volume on the amp block?

 

The big knob does not change the tone... just the volume going out.  The Master Volume (maybe called something else?) on the amp block does change the tone.

[Stewartcmiller]

This is a thread for the Spider V, so I think that may be part of the confusion.

[Beacher]

 

Regarding the Spider 5's ... as I understand it, there are 3 "volume" controls ... the foot pedal, the amp block "Volume", and the "Master Volume". The words "channel volume" come from the Spider IV's but it is not a term used on the Spider V's. (if I understand it correctly).

 

The foot pedal can be placed before or after the amp block. I am thinking (maybe I am wrong) that the amp block per sé, can be considered a "pre amp" in traditional amp nomenclature? I agree with MrVander than the "Master Volume" of the amp simply regulates the overall volume of everything thing that comes before it? Therefore it cannot be edited per preset. This makes sense to me. The pre-amp (or amp block) volume can be editied and preset to adjust various preset volumes relative to each other. It's "job" basically (at least that's how I use it). The Volume pedal is tricky, if it is before the amp block, then it will affect how much input will hit the preamp so .... it will affect tone .... if after the amp block less effect on tone but it is still before both efx blocks 3/4. If not using a volume pedal then this is all moot.

 

The way I use my Spider V (with the FBV3) is to always put the pedal volume after the amp block, level the presets for taste against each other with the amp block volume, then set the amp master to taste for the gig or rehearsal. My set up is very simple. I can do everything I need with 4 presets (A-B-C-D), couple cleans and couple crunches. It has taken a while to get it where I like it but I am basically there now. I have had many Spiders and I really like this V way more an any of the previous Spiders, but that MkII 212 Valve was really sweet, and it had some things going on that the V doesn't match IMHO. I regret letting it go sometimes, but it was literally killing my back .... lol.

 

[Stewartcmiller]

I agree with everything Beacher has said.

 

Re the comment about the volume pedal before or after the “amp block”, that’s an interesting thought. Never thought of it that way before. Does it indeed change the tone or is that just a hunch you have?

 

 

[Beacher]

Stewart ... for example ... if you have the volume pedal before the preamp, and are using grunge (especially heavy grunge) when you back down the volume pedal you are dropping the feed into the preamp (aka amp block) and the grunge density will then clean up to some degree. This can be desired in some cases, lower volume less grunge higher volume more grunge etc ... but placing the volume pedal after the amp, alows me to make it louder or softer as need be, and not loose the grunge density. I prefer that. In a way, when placed after the amp block, it kind of simulates having foot control over the master level. Not exactly the same, but similar. However, all that being said, everybody's workflow through these amps can be slightly different, so you have to experiment to find what works best for yourself.

 

I made a few banks of my 4 amp settings to try different amp models etc.I love the JS CLEAN #27A for clean tones. Best for me in the amp. I have them on A & B with different delay variants, chorus, tremolo, etc. I did change the EQ settings in the preamp from stock but not much.

 

My only beef with this amp is that FS5 is locked to Reverb only. Since I don't use reverb, it is a dead switch for me. I have no idea why they did this? I think all the efx switches 1-5 should be open to use whatever efx you want in whatever position you want just like a pedal board. I could combine A & B to one preset if I had use of FS5 for somethng other than reverb. Not a deal breaker, just a frustration in my camp.

[Stewartcmiller]

1 hour ago, Beacher said:

In a way, when placed after the amp block, it kind of simulates having foot control over the master level.

This is how I have always set it up. So using it purely to regulate the “master volume”.

 

Will try experiment with your suggestions.

I wish that some of these possibilities had been explained in more detail in a manual...

 

Not having played traditional tubes/analog amps could you briefly explain what impact the pre-amp and power amp have on the overall tone. I realize this is a science onto itself, but high level would be helpful.

 

Thanks

[mrvander]

On 6/18/2021 at 3:28 AM, Stewartcmiller said:

This is how I have always set it up. So using it purely to regulate the “master volume”.

 

Will try experiment with your suggestions.

I wish that some of these possibilities had been explained in more detail in a manual...

 

Not having played traditional tubes/analog amps could you briefly explain what impact the pre-amp and power amp have on the overall tone. I realize this is a science onto itself, but high level would be helpful.

 

Thanks

 

I had forgotten I created this thread.

 

At a high level, think of the pre-amp like your guitar volume control. When you crank it, you are sending all the volts into the amp and driving it harder. This will cause more breakup (distortion) of your tone as well as higher volume. A tube driver/screamer pedal does this exact effect - "drives/pushes" the tubes beyond what the amp is capable of by itself.

 

Conversely, when you turn down the volume on your guitar, you can clean up the signal. Putting the volume pedal before the amp stack has this same effect - it can drive the tubes to whatever you have the amp set at or allows you to "back-off" the input and clean the signal up.

 

The power amp can affect the tone based on what kind of cabinet and speakers you are using. The power amp is how hard your driving the physical speakers. It's a more subtle effect on tone and it can be completely imperceptible... depends on the amp and speakers. I highly doubt this is actually modelled in the Spider since it actually is a physical amp with it's own speaker. So for this amp, the volume post-amp really just gives you control over the master volume with 100% being where you have the knob set.

 

I'm still wondering about my original question, if the volume knob in the amp models is actually modelled after each amp or is JUST for levelling patches.