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Two HX Stomps into PA too many?


kdrottar
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Running two guitars each with an HX Stomp through PA. Either one alone sounds great. Both together sound distorted. None of the level meters indicate a problem. Any idea what is going on and how this could be fixed? Thanks in advance.

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Thanks for the replies. Two guitars, two Stomps, two channels of one PA. Both HX Stomp patches set relatively clean sounding. The output of the PA is distorted as in sounding harsh/buzzy/unpleasant. Not distorted in a good way. Line level, direct from HX Stomp to PA channel has been tried. Converting HX Stomp line level output to balanced line input to PA channel has been tried. Neither has any positive effect. PA is not anywhere near its maximum output. Neither PA channel indicates an overload condition. Keeping input levels consistent, one guitar with HX Stomp, other guitar with mic'd amplifier into two channels of PA does not distort. Both guitars with mic'd amplifiers into two channels of PA does not distort. Two guitars, two HX Stomps, two channels of PA distorts. Does this rule out the PA? I don't know specifically how Helix works... Is it possible that Helix passes some digital oversampling frequency artifacts (normally inaudible) into its output and if these two Stomps are not synchronized in some way, then when combined in the PA, nasty sum and difference tones are created? The band travels and really wants a multiple HX Stomp solution to work, so again, any help greatly appreciated.

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On 6/24/2021 at 12:19 AM, kdrottar said:

Running two guitars each with an HX Stomp through PA. Either one alone sounds great. Both together sound distorted. None of the level meters indicate a problem. Any idea what is going on and how this could be fixed? Thanks in advance.

 

Check your cabling and try swapping cables out and check all connections. Might even try swapping out guitars, especially if one is active and has a battery. Looks like you are going direct but if you are miking amps you could have a problem with a defective "microphonic" amplifier tube introducing distortion as the amp's input level increases from the Stomp. Double check your mixer's channel settings especially the input trim/gain(not the faders) and make sure it is not set too high. Test it at a lower level. Are both channels EQ'd the same way with the same FX? 

 

Start troubleshooting by removing any EQ and FX from the guitars' channels and test them flat. Maybe something like a reverb or delay on your mixer is "running away" once things get cranking. Post EQ and FX could easily be at fault if the issue only exists in the PA. Make sure your mains are not overloading. Keep an eye on your meters if you have 'em. Are both players running either Line or Instrument level out to the board? The board may be responding differently and more prone to clipping if for example only one of the Stomp's outputs is set to "Line".  Set them both to Instrument level. What do you hear in the mixer's headphones feed when you solo each channel during a "distortion" event? That might help you narrow things down to a single Stomp as the culprit if the issue is not cumulative. Make sure you don't have phantom power turned on in one of the channels. Just some of what I might do to try and hone in on the problem.

 

Also, as always having adequate and clean power is critical. Some folks have reported problems with the Stomp when their power isn't dependable.

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2 hours ago, kdrottar said:

I don't know specifically how Helix works... Is it possible that Helix passes some digital oversampling frequency artifacts (normally inaudible) into its output and if these two Stomps are not synchronized in some way, then when combined in the PA, nasty sum and difference tones are created?

 

Only within a vivid imagination :)  Lets move on! 

 

2 hours ago, kdrottar said:

Both guitars with mic'd amplifiers into two channels of PA does not distort. Two guitars, two HX Stomps, two channels of PA distorts. Does this rule out the PA?

 

No it does not rule out the PA. What is the PA/MIXER you are using? 

 

You mention earlier that the stomps are LINE LEVEL and that when you MIC AMPS the issue does not occur. That is a very big clue as to what is happening. 

MIC'ed AMPS feed the mixer at MIC level which is a lot quieter than line level. 

 

There are a few options to solve this problem

  • If MIC Level is not an option on the STOMP, set the output to INSTRUMENT level.
  • Use the input gain/trim on the mixing board to reduce the input level coming into the board. (on the Stomps channels)
  • Place a direct box with a PAD engaged between the stomp and the mixer. 
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Thanks for the continuing discussion and suggestions. It's a Mackie 808 mixer. Converting HX Stomp line level output to balanced line (mic) input to PA did not remove the distortion. Turning my question around... Has anyone on this thread actually used two HX Stomps through a PA in a live music performance? Did it work for your band? Was there anything special that needed to be done? 

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2 hours ago, kdrottar said:

Thanks for the continuing discussion and suggestions. It's a Mackie 808 mixer. Converting HX Stomp line level output to balanced line (mic) input to PA did not remove the distortion. Turning my question around... Has anyone on this thread actually used two HX Stomps through a PA in a live music performance? Did it work for your band? Was there anything special that needed to be done? 

 

I was suggesting changing the global settings 'Ins/Outs' --> 'Output Level' = "Inst" on both of the HX Stomps. This sounds like you changed to a different input on the PA(which is also worth trying).

 

Have you tried any of the other suggestions? You should be able to run several HX Stomps at the same time. If you haven't had the opportunity yet it is worth walking through the HX Stomp to PA setup step by step as well as the settings on the Stomp and the mixer and systematically eliminating possible causes. Not saying it isn't possible but looking for a magic bullet in someone else's dual Stomp setup may or may not yield results.

 

The usual suggestions regarding eliminating ground loops, perhaps fluorescent lights, and other sources of noise apply. DI and hum eliminator boxes have been a solution for some users with noise issues. Also worth trying plugging both stomps in the same power strip or different strips. There are several topics around here on the subject of noise if you can search them up. Good luck with this!

 

 

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6 hours ago, kdrottar said:

Has anyone on this thread actually used two HX Stomps through a PA in a live music performance? Did it work for your band? Was there anything special that needed to be done? 

 

For obvious reasons, I haven't had many chances to actually perform live since I bought the Stomp last summer, but I have successfully used it for bass guitar by plugging it directly into the PA multicore box on stage via a self-soldered TRS-to-XLR patch cable. Worked like a charm, I never had such a great bass sound before. Obviously I set the Stomp output to Instrument level to make it behave as close to a regular DI box as possible. The sound guy likely must have enabled an input pad on that channel, but I didn't ask him, and he didn't complain whatsoever.

 

Yeah, it was "just" one Stomp. However, I'm not sure why it would make a difference. Each mixer channel should work independently here, regardless how many Stomps you plug in. If they don't, then something is wrong.

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11 hours ago, kdrottar said:

It's a Mackie 808 mixer.

 

That mixer appears to have clip lights beside each input gain/trim.... are any of those clip lights coming on? If they are... turn down the gain until that stops. There could also be gain staging issues later in the "mixing chain" (bus, master out, etc...)

 

11 hours ago, kdrottar said:

Converting HX Stomp line level output to balanced line (mic) input to PA did not remove the distortion.

 

That statement is confusing, and would appear to make matters worse if it's taken at its word. Please set the STOMP OUTPUTS to Mic Level (or instrument level) in the global settings then adjust the gains accordingly on the mixer. You NEVER want to see the input clip light come on at the mixer channel. 

 

Gain staging is critical with PA's, and if you have "line level" feeding "mic inputs" without proper adjustments this is exactly the type of thing that will happen. 

 

11 hours ago, kdrottar said:

Has anyone on this thread actually used two HX Stomps through a PA in a live music performance? Did it work for your band?

 

The HX Stomp and Helix are the same thing... just different footprints and features. I use a Helix direct 90% of the time and I've played with several players that use HX Stomps direct. What you are describing is never an issue.

 

This notion of "two Stomps don't play nice together" is a waste of time and it is leading you the wrong direction in trying to solve the problem.

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, kdrottar said:

 Has anyone on this thread actually used two HX Stomps through a PA in a live music performance? Did it work for your band? Was there anything special that needed to be done? 

 

Yes.  Three different modelers one for bass, one for acoustic guitar, one for electric guitar lead plus a BeatBuddy all going directly into the mixer, and we do it every single week when we perform.  There's no problem with it as long as you understand the basic concepts of how to gain stage your channels on the mixing board which appears to be your main problem.  Since you're dealing with an analog mixer you'll need to depress the PFL button on each channel when you want to gain stage it in order for the signal level for that channel to show up on your signal meter.  While someone is playing normally, adjust the gain/trim knob on that channel until the level is reasonably below the unity mark at 0db.  Turn off the PFL for that channel and do the next one.  Once you're done turn off the PFL btton on all the channels so you can monitor the final output of the mixer based on the faders.

If you're going to run your own mixing board I'd strongly suggest you watch some YouTube videos on gain staging a mixer to understand what you're doing.

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When stuff stops working as expected, it's easiest to blame the last thing that changed. Although the issue was not encountered before the band switched to HX Stomps, you all have convinced me the only sensible path to resolution is treating it as a mixer gain staging problem, nothing intrinsic in Helix. I am grateful. Thanks!

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50 minutes ago, kdrottar said:

When stuff stops working as expected, it's easiest to blame the last thing that changed. Although the issue was not encountered before the band switched to HX Stomps, you all have convinced me the only sensible path to resolution is treating it as a mixer gain staging problem, nothing intrinsic in Helix. I am grateful. Thanks!

 

An eminently rational and sensible conclusion and one with a high percentage chance of aiding you in tracking down the source of the issue. Happy troubleshooting!

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