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ichasedx

Ir vs pc+ speaker emulation

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I've reached the point where all my presets and snapshots are setup properly, with the right effects, levels etc. The only thing I haven't tried yet is changing presets with IRS and use the speaker simulation in the PC+. I also haven't tried to change my speaker cabinets. I've played around with the mics and their distance a little and have chosen my favorite few. I was wondering what the majority of PC+ users find most realistic. I'm trying to save a lot of trial and error and maybe learn from your experiences. Im sure as always it comes down to what sounds best to me...but are there general rules that some of you follow when choosing between IRS, speaker sim, type of amp, (combo or separate speaker enclosure(s)). 

  I really don't have the time at this point to continually conduct A/B comparisons. Just hoping for a little direction and advise before I open the "can of worms".

Thanks,

Mike

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The majority of PC+ users (as reflected in the LARGE Digital and Modeling Forum on TGP) think that the speaker emulations sound like a$$.

YMMV.

 

Only way to know for sure is to use Snapshots to A/B between cabs, IRs and speakers.

When you have time, of course.

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On 6/28/2021 at 6:58 PM, ichasedx said:

  I really don't have the time at this point to continually conduct A/B comparisons. Just hoping for a little direction and advise before I open the "can of worms".

Thanks,

Mike

I hear you about the time, but it will require some. Do a little bit at a time.  rd2rk is correct about what most people think of the speakers of which I am one of them. However, IRs are a different story. In my presets, I go back and forth between FRFR Flat with the IRs in the Helix and some with the IRs in the cab. It depends on what I am looking for. When I do IRs in the Helix and use FRFR, I am getting more of a Hi-fi sound. Very polished. The IRs in the PC are a bit more raw and really like a cab in the room (although both options are more like having a cab in the room vs. studio monitors).  For me, both options are great. The speaker option in the PC....meh. So, how I would do it is keep everything that you did thus far in the Helix and use the PC with FRFR Flat. Then take some of those presets and copy them to a new preset and take the IRs out and start using the IRs in the PC to build new presets and save some space on the Helix. If you are using IRs in the Helix and they are .wav files, you can just move those over to the PC and see how they sound in the PC vs the Helix. The stock IRs in the PC are decent the Vintage and Green are good. However, if you want to get third party, I would suggest Getting the Redwirez free GM12 Pack to start if it is still available. I got that one and then went ahead and purchased their Big Box. Great IRs. Also the Live Ready Sound Power Cab bundle is good. Ownhammer is good as well, but I find these are a lot of work to dial in with the PC and tend to be better just in the Helix. One trick I have learned is that if you are going to use IRs in the PC and also use FRFR and switch back and forth, you may want to bring the IR speaker level up a bit and then bring the FRFR level up a bit and get good matching room volume. The PC take some time, but I have learned, and rd2rk will tell you, I have spent some time with these, back and forth and keep coming back to them because they sound great and with the Helix are so easy to operate with tons of possibilities. 

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I can't think of any reason that an IR in Helix with Powercab in FRFR mode would sound different than the same IR in Powercab. The actual processing should be the same. Where IRs in Powercab are useful is if your modeler doesn't support IRs, doesn't have enough DSP space for the IR in the patch, or you want to save a block in something like HX Stomp. 

 

I haven't actually compared them though as I use IRs in Helix out of convenience, use amp+cab models in HX Stomp to save the block, and mostly use Powercab in FRFR mode. 

 

I have however used the speaker models in Powercab on occasion and found them pretty useful. They sound different, and different is ok. Sometimes when we're comparing things we spend too much time trying to make them sound the same, thinking one is bad if we can't get them the same. Instead we should celebrate their differences and use them to our advantage.

 

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One trick I've been using lately is to use MIDI to add a LITTLE HF Driver to the Speaker emulations, and subtract a LITTLE from the FRFR/IRs.

That's CC#5, and FWIW, a Value of 113 is 0db. +/- 1db is a Value of +/- 2. 

 

So, using a Speaker Emulation, sending CC#5 Value 0 turns OFF the HF Driver. This is useful since the "automatic" function doesn't always work properly.

Sending CC#5 Value 2 results in -94.5db (95.5 is MIN before OFF).

 

Using cabs/IRs (in Helix OR PC+), sending CC#5 Value 113 results in 0db, useful for the same reason stated above. CC#5 Value 104 results in -7.5db.

 

This is very much a taste thing, and the Values used are not 1/1 with the db levels, so experiment!

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On 7/16/2021 at 8:43 AM, amsdenj said:

I can't think of any reason that an IR in Helix with Powercab in FRFR mode would sound different than the same IR in Powercab. The actual processing should be the same. Where IRs in Powercab are useful is if your modeler doesn't support IRs, doesn't have enough DSP space for the IR in the patch, or you want to save a block in something like HX Stomp. 

 

I haven't actually compared them though as I use IRs in Helix out of convenience, use amp+cab models in HX Stomp to save the block, and mostly use Powercab in FRFR mode. 

 

I have however used the speaker models in Powercab on occasion and found them pretty useful. They sound different, and different is ok. Sometimes when we're comparing things we spend too much time trying to make them sound the same, thinking one is bad if we can't get them the same. Instead we should celebrate their differences and use them to our advantage.

 

Not sure why IRs in Helix with FRFR sound different than IRs in the PC, but they do. I think that the IRs in the PC is kind of like a custom version of the speaker mode in the PC. I could be wrong but that is what I am hearing. Could be also that I am not sure how I would assign an IR in the signal path to go to one PC and the other to go to another PC. Unless maybe I use different signal paths with the IRs in the Helix. Just so much easier to edit the IRs right in the Powercab section of the Helix output. 

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2 hours ago, Wondo100 said:

Not sure why IRs in Helix with FRFR sound different than IRs in the PC, but they do. I think that the IRs in the PC is kind of like a custom version of the speaker mode in the PC. I could be wrong but that is what I am hearing. Could be also that I am not sure how I would assign an IR in the signal path to go to one PC and the other to go to another PC. Unless maybe I use different signal paths with the IRs in the Helix. Just so much easier to edit the IRs right in the Powercab section of the Helix output. 

 

I don't hear it. Are you putting the IR at the end of the signal chain, and are you sure that when you load a preset with an IR, that the HF Driver is turning on, and likewise when the IR is in the PC+? L6 Link doesn't properly manage that, at least on my PC212+. Could that be the difference in what you're hearing? I just set up a test with a J45 Brt into a YA Frdman M25 Mix 1 on both Helix and My PC, switched by Snapshot over L6 Link. I'd been using Speaker emulation, for which I use MIDI to turn OFF the HF Driver. L6 Link DID NOT turn it back on like it's supposed to, and I had to use MIDI to make sure it was ON. I don't recall which PC you have. If it's the PC112+ I've been told that L6 Link works correctly, but I rarely take these things for granted, and don't have a PC112+ to test. 

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Using 2x 112+. L6 Link. Not sure how to tell if HF driver is on or off. IRs are at the end of chain. But have not tested this enough. Perhaps we can work together to figure this out. 

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Open PC Edit. Go to the SYSTEM tab. You'll see High Frequency Trim.

Drag that full left and play. Drag it full right and play.

Your PC 112+ cabs should both sound the same - dull with the slider to the left, fizzy with the slider to the right.

 

Get a pair of MIDI cables and daisy chain the cabs. Make sure that the first cab is set to MIDI THRU, and both are set to the BASE CHANNEL on your Helix.

In your preset, set the first IC to CC#5 with a Value of 113. That equals 0.0db on the PCs, the default HF Driver level.

Now you can create a simple preset with an identical IR on both the Helix and the PCs, set to switch with Snapshots, and easily A/B the cabs with IRs on Helix or in the cabs.

 

Interesting Tidbits - When the PCs were first released, many users complained that FRFR sounded awful, and the common ignorance was to use LF Flat or LF RAW instead.

IOW, HF Driver OFF.

Then they complained that it sounded like there was a blanket over the cab! That was also a common complaint about the Speaker Mode.

It's my opinion that the problem was that the coaxial speaker worked TOO WELL. AND that L6 Link was faulty in that it didn't consistently control the HF Driver in the various Modes.

IRs were fizzy and thin sounding, Speaker emulations were too dull sounding (as well as "doesn't sound like the real thing" - like people who use modelers are ever going to agree on THAT!).

 

From the earliest days of FRFR modelers, to battle fizz, users applied radical high cuts, removing "inaudible" high frequency content, then wondered why their modelers sounded like a$$.

 

The real problem was that they were using PA speakers with separate drivers, and they had no control over the HF Driver levels.

FIZZ! Especially standing only a few feet from a speaker meant to fill a hall with sound.

 

Powercab was designed to solve both problems. The coaxial speaker combines the frequency ranges at the cab, not 20 feet away, and the HF Driver level can be controlled.

The problem with that is that you need MIDI to do it, compounded by a horribly written manual that doesn't even mention it apart from what CC# you need to do it.

Sending CC#5 with a Value of 105 drops the HF Driver level -6.5db, just enough to take the edge off. As always, YMMV.

Likewise, sending a Value >0 adds life to the Speaker emulations.

 

Rant over. Let me know how it goes!

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Tried the cabs with PC Edit. I moved the HF driver levels and could hear the difference. I was unable to do the MIDI set up yet. Are you saying that If I have the exact preset that I am using with PC IRs and put in same IRs in the signal chain in the Helix and turn them on and then go FRFR that it should sound the same? They do not sound the same with all the same settings. The IRs in the PC sounds better. I know better is subjective and maybe I still need to figure out if when in FRFR if the Helix is sending a pure FRFR through L6 Link and not turning off the HF driver. 

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Here's a simple test example preset with the MIDI for the HF Trim setting. Just substitute your own IR in both devices.

 

I found this in the manual:

 

Powercab Plus systems can import IRs by way of the Powercab Edit software (see next section). It is possible to import any mono .wav file IR, provided it conforms to the compatible IR properties (48kHz, 24-bit, mono, 2048 samples). While this is very convenient, please be careful not to load just any .wav file as an IR or you may experience unexpected sonic results. SysEx files are not supported.
When used in User IR stereo mode, the sample length is carefully truncated to 1024 samples.

 

I'm not sure what this means.

The YA IRs I'm using are in the specified format.

Also, if Powercab is using 2048 when in Mono Mode, and L6 Link is not properly switching to stereo when you daisy chain a second PC112+, this MIGHT be the difference you're hearing. Pure speculation on my part, as I've never been able to hear a difference between 1024 and 2048. Just something to think about.

Wondo100 IR.hlx

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So, you would like me to:

 

1. Import Preset

2. Add my own IRs to where you have them in the preset. 

3. Add same IRs to PC as well.

4. Link up both PCs with MIDI

5. Play preset in FRFR and notice what it sounds like with changing HF Trim settings.

6. Have snapshot turn off IRs, in the preset and turn on IR setting in Power Cab

7. Notice if there is a difference. 

 

(One thing to consider is that in my presets using IR in PC, is that I use different IRs for each cab. Not sure how I would do this with IRs in the Helix and going FRFR with PC....For this experiment, I will use the same IRs in both cabs). 

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Yes. The purpose is to establish that everything is working correctly. If L6 Link is working as designed, you don't need the MIDI.

Once you know that it's working correctly, then worry about what IRs you use in each cab.

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Ok. Verdict is that FRFR with Helix IR sounds just like Power Cab with IR with L6 Link. All is working correctly. It is not messing with the HF Driver. I think what I have been doing is turning up the IR level when loaded in to the cab  and that is what is sounding better. It allows the speaker to come alive a bit more. You can bump the level of the Flat level too. Typically, I am bumping the cab IR up to -12db from default -18db. That is a good range. If you bump the Flat Level up by +6db, the Cab with IR and Helix with IR in FRFR sounds the same. But, in theory, you have more headroom in the cab to bump the db up a bit. I find that little bump allows the speaker to be more present. 

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Thus proving once again that louder IS better! :-)

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Actually, also meant to add that of course you can bring up the volume of the internal IR on the helix to match what the IR does when loaded in the cab, but I find just a small bump then on the Flat level brings the FRFR to have a bit more presence. Louder is not always better, but for the IRs it tends to bring them into a more present state and not too harsh or not too dull. 

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15 minutes ago, Wondo100 said:

Louder is not always better

 

Wait - you're not one of those "soft rock/easy listening" guys, are you?

 

REPENT!

Repeat after me - "Louder is Better!"

Rejoice in the Holy Feedback!

 

TURN IT UP!

ELEVEN! ELEVEN!

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One thing that gets confusing is with 2 PC 112+ in HX Edit, in the Powercab section when using IR and set to preset, you have the choice of 1, 2 or 1+2. I bring up 1 and put the IR I want in there and then I bring up 2 and put the IR in there, then if I choose 1+2 it defaults to IR number 0. If I want to put the same IR on both cabs, I have to choose 1+2. I hope that is right because the ear can play tricks on you sometimes thinking that there is a difference in what you are hearing when choosing 1 or 2 because technically you are hearing both cabs but just editing 1 or 2. 

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3 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

Wait - you're not one of those "soft rock/easy listening" guys, are you?

 

REPENT!

Repeat after me - "Louder is Better!"

Rejoice in the Holy Feedback!

 

TURN IT UP!

ELEVEN! ELEVEN!

Ah, you got me bro. I play everything. Just got done playing Rime of the Ancient Mariner by Maiden. But last night, playing some ambient stuff with pads and looper. Might venture in to some old Rush later tonight. Fly By Night album. I still have to change my Hemispheres setting that I was using in 7CM with my two Grandmeisters (think you helped me build that patch along with Josh at L6). and translate it to full modeling with the PCs. 

 

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That is correct. IIRC, 1 is LEFT and 2 is RIGHT. 1+2 just allows you to use the same IR on both with a single entry, and control them both with one set of controls (linked).

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On 7/16/2021 at 12:05 PM, rd2rk said:

One trick I've been using lately is to use MIDI to add a LITTLE HF Driver to the Speaker emulations, and subtract a LITTLE from the FRFR/IRs.

That's CC#5, and FWIW, a Value of 113 is 0db. +/- 1db is a Value of +/- 2. 

 

So, using a Speaker Emulation, sending CC#5 Value 0 turns OFF the HF Driver. This is useful since the "automatic" function doesn't always work properly.

Sending CC#5 Value 2 results in -94.5db (95.5 is MIN before OFF).

 

Using cabs/IRs (in Helix OR PC+), sending CC#5 Value 113 results in 0db, useful for the same reason stated above. CC#5 Value 104 results in -7.5db.

 

This is very much a taste thing, and the Values used are not 1/1 with the db levels, so experiment!

Oh man, I thought you had found a MIDI workaround to the HF being off on the PC+ speaker models (not IR's or flat modes).  I just tried it with several PC+ speaker models and my HX Stomp XL and instant CC MIDI sent to PC+ as you outlined.  Sadly no luck.  The PC+ speaker models seem to disable the HF driver completely. 

 

C'mon Line 6!  Just a little HF sparkle (user adjustable) on those PC+ speaker models would really liven them up to sound more like the real speaker they are emulating in the room.  The XLR out of PC+ to my new Headrush FRFR 108 speaker sounds great though!  Kudos to Line 6 for nailing that.

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You must be doing something wrong, because while I haven't tried it with my HXS (different physical locations), it works fine on my Floor.

Attach the preset you're testing with and I'll have a look at it.

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7 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

You must be doing something wrong, because while I haven't tried it with my HXS (different physical locations), it works fine on my Floor.

Attach the preset you're testing with and I'll have a look at it.

 

Oh it works fine in PC+ flat and IR modes on the PC+ over MIDI just as you wrote up, but HF level has no effect on the PC+ built-in speaker models (Vintage, Green, Jarvis, Jetson, Shade, Bayou, etc.).

 

I think I've read on other threads here that the PC+ speaker models do not use the HF driver and disable it.  They only use the LF driver.  I would love to be wrong on this.  It wouldn't even bother me to find out something is wrong with my PC+ at this point.

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Posted (edited)

AHA! I see what you're talking about!

Using the HXSXL, you're sending a MIDI Program Change (or manually twisting the knob)  to select a PRESET on the PC+.

That does, indeed, disable the HF Driver completely.

When I use L6 Link to send saved SPEAKER MODE settings with the HX Preset/Snapshots, it doesn't do that!

 

Try this. Set your first Instant Command to send the MIDI to select the actual Speaker, vs sending a Program Change to use a PC+ Preset, and use the 2nd IC to set the HF Driver.

 

Example:

1st IC - CC#22 Value = 0 selects Vintage

2nd IC - CC#5 Value = 20 adds some HF Driver (random selection, change to taste)

 

If you're using a PC212, then

2nd IC - CC#102 Value = 0 selects Vintage on the 2nd Physical speaker

3rd IC - CC#5 Value = 20 (random selection, change to taste)

 

The CC#s for the different speakers are listed in the Powercab Manual.

 

Let me know how it works!

 

Edited by rd2rk
Bad info
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Still no affect on the HF driver on a PC+ 112 speaker model.  I can only get HF level to affect the PC+ flat modes via MIDI from HXSXL, with physical PC+ controls, or Powercab edit.

 

Simple stock PlacaterDrt preset attached.  HX cabs are off, MIDI 1st and 2nd IC CC# values are as you recommended.  I even bumped CC#5 to see if I could tell if the HF driver was engaged.

 

 

PC+_PlacaterDrt.hlx

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Posted (edited)

There's a reason I don't automatically tell people to RTM, because I don't always do it myself!

 

From the manual:

 

SPEAKER MODE PARAMETERS
Intended to respond like a real guitar speaker for a traditional "amp-in-the-room" experience. This mode applies different tonal characteristics of the selected speaker model to the system's coaxial driver, with the following adjustable parameters.

 

BUT, while the PC+ PRESETS totally take control of the HF Driver, sending specific MIDI to select the speaker does not.

I just tried the suggestion I made in my last post using my Helix Floor, and it worked perfectly!

 

Edited by rd2rk
Bad info

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I just tried your preset on my Floor, and it works as expected. Sets the HF Trim to -79db.

In PC Edit, on the System Tab, do you have it set to receive both PC and CC on MIDI Channel 1?

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Yep, PC Edit System settings are as you describe, PC + CC on MIDI Chanel 1.

 

I also just checked the Line 6 downloads for PC+ 112.  I have the latest firmware, edit, and drivers.

 

I wonder if there is a bug, Helix Floor vs HX Stomp MIDI.  

 

My local Guitar Center has a PC+ 112 on display for demo.  I could take my HXSXL up there and test too.

 

image.thumb.png.3499019d0691b1ac45d95c0347b5799b.png

 

image.thumb.png.6395141c8222ac37291b25ec3df97894.png

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Wait, now I'm really confused. In the screenshot, HF Trim is at -79db. Did you set that by hand? Because if not, the MIDI is working! That's what a CC#5 Value of 20 does, sets the HF Trim to -79db!

 

Test it. Change the Value. The HF Trim will be different. For instance, Value of 105 = -6.5db.

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No, I did not set that by hand.  That was set by MIDI, just as you wrote up.  MIDI works to set the global value just as you have written in all of your posts here.  That was actually never the issue.  You were always spot on there.

 

The observation I am making is that adjustment of HF trim via any method (MIDI, PC+ onboard controls, or PC Edit) ONLY affects the PC+ Flat/FRFR and the sound of any monitor signal coming back into it.  It DOES NOT affect the built in PC+ speaker-only models (Vintage, Green, Jarvis, Jetson, Shade, Bayou, etc.). 

 

From other threads and my own observation, PC+ disables the HF driver for those PC+ built in speaker models and only uses the LF driver.  Hence people complaining about them being "dull" and "having a blanket over the cab" when using PC+ built in speaker models.

 

Anyway, I had not thought about using MIDI to adjust the HF trim.  So regardless, you were very helpful and I learned something new.  Especially since HX Stomp can only use MIDI to control PC+ and does not have L6 Link.  So thank you!

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We're both learning new things.

 

Since my Floor does have L6 Link, I've never used MIDI (or the PC+ Knob) to select PC+ Presets or Speakers. I always just left it on Preset 0, Flat Stereo, and used L6 Link to set the speakers and MIDI to set the  HF Trim. That works perfectly. But using straight MIDI to set both the Speakers and HF Trim, as required with the HX series, the HF Trim is always OFF and disabled.

 

What's odd about that is the L6 Link is SUPPOSED to do that automatically, but doesn't, a well documented "bug"(?), which I'm not sure I want them to fix!.

 

Well, at least you can use MIDI to adjust the HF Trim when using USER IRs (CC#25 Values 0-127).

That, at least, DOES work without L6 Link! And it definitely helps the USER IRs sound more "AITR".

 

 

 

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Wow, thank you SO much for going through that with me. Hopefully it's helpful with others.

 

I may open a support ticket and or post on Ideascale on the issue and refer to this thread.  Maybe this is something Line 6 can fix in a future HX stomp update.

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On 8/11/2021 at 6:51 PM, roscoe5 said:

Wow, thank you SO much for going through that with me. Hopefully it's helpful with others.

 

I may open a support ticket and or post on Ideascale on the issue and refer to this thread.  Maybe this is something Line 6 can fix in a future HX stomp update.

 

Rd2rk is a great guy!

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1 hour ago, HotRats73 said:

 

Rd2rk is a great guy!

 

Thank you (Blush).

However, sometimes the Powercab baffles me. I just edited my posts in the "My thoughts...." thread over on TGP as follows:

 

EDIT: I was wrong about being able to use MIDI to add HF Driver to taste in Speaker Mode. Although PC Edit reflects the change, it doesn't really work!
@Digital Igloo @Frank Ritchotte FIX THE POWERCAB/PC EDIT BUGS! PLEASE!
 

 

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7 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

Thank you (Blush).

However, sometimes the Powercab baffles me. I just edited my posts in the "My thoughts...." thread over on TGP as follows:

 

EDIT: I was wrong about being able to use MIDI to add HF Driver to taste in Speaker Mode. Although PC Edit reflects the change, it doesn't really work!
@Digital Igloo @Frank Ritchotte FIX THE POWERCAB/PC EDIT BUGS! PLEASE!
 

 

 

Yeah, is a product that has an unfair treatment compared to the HX family.

 

(I've been banned for a week from TGP beacuse I wrote Mr know it all Jay M "I've added a useful information, you should thank me instead of being the usual @$#&" the symbols @$#& are mine, I've censored my self in the message. I think a week is unfair :(" )

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On 8/18/2021 at 7:22 PM, rd2rk said:

 

Thank you (Blush).

However, sometimes the Powercab baffles me. I just edited my posts in the "My thoughts...." thread over on TGP as follows:

 

EDIT: I was wrong about being able to use MIDI to add HF Driver to taste in Speaker Mode. Although PC Edit reflects the change, it doesn't really work!
@Digital Igloo @Frank Ritchotte FIX THE POWERCAB/PC EDIT BUGS! PLEASE!
 

 

Support does not think there is a problem. I have been back and forth with them and their position is that there have not been any users complaining of any issues with the power cab especially the issue with the two cabs linked with L6 Link. Oh well.....

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The last PC212+ update 8/13/2019:

 

Known Issues:

  • Recording USB Audio from Powercab 212 Plus may have audible artifacts when connected to a Helix via L6 Link.
  • Remote control messages to 'Speaker 2' are not received when using 2 Powercab 212 Plus devices daisy-chained via L6 Link with Helix.

 

I get the feeling we're being screwed. L6 Link doesn't work as advertised, they can't fix it, and they don't want to hear it.

 

15 minutes ago, Wondo100 said:

Support does not think there is a problem. I have been back and forth with them and their position is that there have not been any users complaining of any issues with the power cab especially the issue with the two cabs linked with L6 Link. Oh well.....

 

I wonder, if you took them in to a certified Service Center and demonstrated the problem, THEN would they believe you?

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