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ATTN ALL HELIX EXPERTS! Kooky Question for you..


tikimug
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Hello all-

 

I've been a Line 6 user for quite a few years now- I have a Spider V 240hc stereo head and I like it alot..

 

BUT I recently borrowed a friend's Helix Floor and liked many of the additional effects and options available there.

 

So follow me on this rabbit hole question :)

 

I do like my 240hc head- it functions as a stereo amp, and I (think) the speaker portion of it is actually  an FRFR, as it is designed for amplifying the models.

(I don't use the newer "cabinet" option- in fact, I haven't even uploaded that update to my 240hc- so it outputs in "full range" mode)

 

The PROBLEM with the 240hc is that there is NO EFFECTS LOOP.

 

When I had my friend's HELIX over here, I used the headphone output and sent that signal into the stereo AUX IN on the 240hc  and it seemed to work just fine.

(My thought process here was that this was just like plugging the Helix into a powered FRFR in stereo)

 

So anyway, that seemed to work and it occured to me later that perhaps I could somehow use that stereo AUX in as a kind of makeshift effects loop for the 240hc.

 

So here goes:

 

1) I only use a handful of amp/cab models.  Both the Helix and the 240hc have similar models (HiWatt, various Fender amps)  they aren't exactly the same, but they are close enough for my needs.

 

- so I don't feel I need the Helix's amp models, as the ones in my 240hc are good enough for me.

 

 

2) What I DON'T have in my 240hc but WANT.. is NEW EFFECTS that aren't in the 240hc. Stuff like the Minotaur- various cool delays and the newly added Helix reverbs.  the 240hc NEVER gets any effects updates, yet it seems the HELIX line gets new stuff from time to time.

 

So I'm thinking maybe what I need is a HELIX HX  (since I don't need Helix's amp models) and to figure out how to properly incorporate it into the 240hc setup.

 

 

3) What I want to try and pull off is this:

 

SOME effects in the HELIX would need to be BEFORE my 240hc's AMP MODELS (ie preamp stage, etc) - this would mostly just be the Minotaur.  (I'm not really interested in any of the other distortions, as I usually just drive the amp model for that)

 

While other effects (most of them) would need to go AFTER the 240hc's AMP MODELS. 

 I'm thinking, if I could figure out a way to send these into the stereo AUX INPUT on the 240hc, it would bypass the 240hc's amp modeling, and it would simply play the effects, like reverb for example, as-is  just like it were some backing track coming from an iphone.

 

 

So my QUESTION for all the HELIX experts is:

 

How would I set this up in a HELIX HX?

 

Can you think of a way (maybe some version of the "4 cable method")

 

where I can plug my guitar into the HELIX HX..   where it will have the Minotaur added to it..

 

then split off that signal to send into the guitar input of the 240hc amp, where it would get modeled and played out the speakers as normal.

 

WHILE AT THE SAME TIME

 

taking the same my dry guitar signal (remember the guitar is plugged directly into the Helix HX)

 

and sending that down a different path to various modulations, reverbs, etc.. (whatever blocks I may put in place)

 

and THEN outputting that signal to a different, SPECIFIC STEREO OUTPUT on the Helix..  which would then be plugged into the stereo AUX INPUT on the 240hc, where it would play the reverb signal cleanly (skipping the amp modeling)

 

This is the only way I can think of to avoid having the reverb from being run "PRE-240hc" (ie: through the 240hc's amp model's drive etc.)  as usually reverb would be POST amp. (ie no amp distortion/drive being applied to the reverb wet signal)

 

 

I appreciate any thoughts or brainstorming on this conundrum I find myself in.. 

 

I'd really like to add a HELIX into my setup, but would also like to keep my 240hc

 

Thanks for any help!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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hmm  the more i think about this, I'm realizing there is an issue with the setup.

 

the guitar would be plugged into the helix, where the dry signal would then split into two paths...

 

Path #1 goes out to the 240hc amp, where it is amp modeled and played through the speakers.

 

Path #2 remains a dry signal within the Helix, where it is run through various effects like reverb, delay, etc.

 

it is then output from the Helix in stereo, where it goes into the 240hc through the stereo AUX-IN and played out the speakers alongside the Path #1 signal.

 

 

THE PROBLEM is:

 

Path #2 never gets amp modeled.  It is just dry guitar into effects and then sent out with no modeling into the stereo AUX input on the amp.

 

So, for example, if the Path #1 amp model has alot of drive on it (distorted)  the Path #2 delay pings will all be clean (no amp model drive)  so it will sound weird.

 

There doesn't seem to be a way to do a proper 4-cable method with this amp because it lacks an effects loop. (why would you leave that out, Line 6?)

 

so there is no way to send a dry signal into the amp, model it and then send it BACK to the Helix for further processing.

 

There is no "send" on the 240hc amp.  There are speaker outputs L/R and XLR direct outputs L/R - and that's it.

 

What's worse, I'm pretty sure both of those include whatever is coming in from the AUX-IN in their signal... so if I attempted to use the XLR outputs as a SEND back to the Helix, it would be doing a feedback loop with Path #2.  (I think)

 

Only solution to this would be if either the XLR outputs do NOT include the AUX-IN signal.. OR Line 6 provides an update to the amp where we can select whether or not to include AUX signal in the XLR outputs.  (this could create the option for a poorman's effects loop) 

 

too bad they didn't include a proper effects loop on the spiders.. I've got Helix money sitting here burning a hole in my pocket that they will probably never see because of that..

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The easiest way for me to digest it (being a helix owner and not a 240c owner) is to list your 240c input/output options.  It sounds like there should be a way to put the amp in an FX Loop of the helix, similar to a regular amps 4 cable method...but I need more info in a way my brain can handle it. 

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Ok, I see the pic, and in the most basic terms, what are you trying to accomplish sound wise?  Use Helix for all tones?  Use the 240 for some tones (do you need to control these somehow?), but Helix for effects?  Use 240 merely as a power amp to a 'real' cabinet type thing?

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Just very quickly, Guitar into Helix. in the Helix, you would then have your pre Spider amp Helix effects and this would then go to an effects send/return block set at instrument level. The effects send goes into the Spider's guitar input. You then take the direct outs of the Spider and go into the effects return in the Helix. In the Helix, that would then go to your post Spider Helix amp/effects. The Helix output then goes into the aux in. I've skipped all of the level adjusting you will have to do to get it right. Specifically focusing on the Spider's direct outs going into the Helix HX. You would probably have to have different effects return levels for different patches depending on what you want  to do. And don't forget, there's things you can do with the parallel path the Helix HX is capable of. I anticipate you will come up against the DSP limit quickly if you do use that.This is just a starting point. It's the best way that I can see to get to what you want. The blend/balance between the Aux in and the Spider amp/effects that goes to the speaker outs will most likely be an issue but I'm not familiar with the Spider or how or even if, you can adjust that. Again this is just how to hook it up. The real work will come with the level/balance setting. Hope this makes sense. Good luck.

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I think the only thing you could really do without modifying the amplifier would be to run a dual tone setup. It would be a little bit of tap dancing. 

 

You would need something like the BOSS-LS2 to setup the switching...Any ABY would work...LS-2 is generally a bit more effective as you can fix gain corrections easily. It's a great utility pedal to have around.

 

basically, split the guitar with the LS2 and send to the input of the Amp and the Stomp...Connect the Stomp main outs or the headphone out to the aux in of the amp. You will be tap dancing changing tones...probably not great for live situations, but for recording it could offer some options.

 

It might be possible with a USB midi host to expose program changes to/from the amp....That I am less certain of, but sometimes midi will be there on USB...If it's documented, it should be there...Then it would just be a matter of finding a compatible host. This is only a possibility...I do not know if the amp has midi over USB or not. I kinda think it does because it has an FBV.

 

You could modify the power amp section to get an insert (FX Loop)...if you did that, then you could 6 cable it stereo...

 

good luck

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Thank you for the replies, all.

 

Here's mine:

 

brue58ski:

 

yes, this is basically what I'm thinking sortof- except I'm unsure of one thing: using the direct outs back into the Helix as an "effects return" and then into the spider amp's AUX IN.

 

the reason I'm not sure about is this:  do the direct outs on the spider amp INCLUDE whats coming into the amp at the AUX IN?  if so, then we have a feedback loop..

 

 

 

spaceatl:

 

not a bad idea.  Still, I think it will run into the issue with unmodelled effects going back into the spider's AUX as I mentioned in my 2nd post, as the only path with modeling would be the one inputting into the amp.   the delays, etc would be based off a clean dry guitar signal, and that would create delays that were too clean vsthe modeled sound.  Might actually be cool.. but wouldn't be "right"

 

 

jwoertz:

 

I hear you-  it is certainly a PITA.  Spider should have included an effects return on this amp- no doubt. It would be perfect in that case.

 

Not going to do the Helix/powercab option-  too expensive, and heavy.   (they really need to make a small, light and portable Powercab that runs in stereo like the 240hc- THAT I would buy, as would a million modellers.) 

 

The 240hc I have now runs FRFR in stereo and it is super light and portable.   As an option, I also own the 4x12 cabinet that runs in stereo.  the whole 4x12 cab is lighter than one powercab and much less expensive.  That setup gives a ton of volume in stereo.  (I actually don't like the 4x12.. because a "half stack" is too big and cumbersome.  I wish they made a "quarter stack" version with 2 12's or 2 10's - that would be ideal)

 

Basically, I'm just wanting the newer Helix effects to play around with.  Minotaur, the new Strymon reverbs, etc.  Wish they would give the Spiders some effects updates.

 

I've been A/B ing the amp models between the Helix and the Spider 240hc and honestly, the differences are very subtle on the ones I use.  In fact, on a few, I prefer the Spider's model.

 

So to pay $2500+ to move to a Helix/powercab setup for just a couple effects isn't worth the money- I've got most of it in the Spider already.  That's why I was thinking of somehow working the Helix HX effects into my current setup.

 

I think at this point my only option is to look into those direct outs and see if they will create an AUX signal feedback loop or not.

 

I'd love to do spaceatl's idea of " You could modify the power amp section to get an insert (FX Loop)...if you did that, then you could 6 cable it stereo... "

 

but that's way beyond my skills..

 

I might have to wait for the Spider 6 line to get what I'm after

 

 

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