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Input Buffer or 1Meg input? Or both?


dannymartinez1
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What's the Input Impedance of the Splitter? That's what will determine the loading on the pickups. The Buffer itself just makes up for the attenuated high frequencies resulting from using a  long cable.

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For sure. I guess I just thought the 1Meg input impedance would act as a buffer for a long cable run already. The buffer is a JHS Buffered Splitter doesn’t say but honestly I think I’ll just split the signal in the Helix itself instead. I can use the send and returns like I have been. I just wanted to find a way to free up a send return!

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There's two separate issues here. When you use a long cable, the impedance of the cable attenuates the high frequencies, and a buffer restores those frequencies to compensate.

If the Input impedance of the buffer is 1M, then that's the way the pickups are "loaded", just like going direct into an amp's input, because the Input impedance of most modern amps is 1M.

 

Because part of the tonal character of certain old pedals, mostly fuzzes and overdrives (facial fuzz, scream 808 for example), were less than 1M, putting them between the guitar and the amp input loaded the pickups differently, and that was part of their character. The Helix Guitar input has an analog circuit that allows the pickups to be loaded as though you had an actual analog pedal instead of the "virtual" Helix effect, if you set the Global setting to "First Active" and leave the preset set at AUTO. You need to be sure that the target effect is not after an active effect with a different impedance in order for this to work properly. But if a buffer with 1M input impedance (or any other real world effect with 1M impedance) is between the guitar and Helix , it defeats the purpose of that circuit. This is also true if you use a wireless, as the wireless loads the pickups at 1M.

 

So, if you use any of the "classic" fuzzes and whatnot that are in Helix (and I THINK some of the older model amps), and want the "classic" tone of those pedals/amps, you don't want to use a long cable, which increases the attenuation effect, or a buffer with 1M input impedance, or a wireless. If you must use a long cable with a buffer or a wireless, your best bet is to not use the "classic" pedals/amps (unless you just like the way they sound despite the lack of pickup loading effect). If you use the virtual pedals that had 1M impedance ITRW, it doesn't matter how you connect the guitar. But yeah, with a long cable you want to use a buffer to make up for the cable impedance.

 

Lastly, the analog impedance circuit is ONLY on the guitar input. The RETURNS are 1M.

 

NOTE: the above explanation is probably over-simplified, and someone better at explaining it might jump in to clarify. There's a list of the impedances of the various Helix effects, which I've posted previously (Helix 2.90 Amp, Effects List - Helix - Line 6 Community). The Excel file is in my first post in that thread. There's a possibility that some of the info could be wrong, as some of those classic pedals had different input impedances in different iterations, and there's no real way to know exactly which ones L6 modeled. Also, it's from v2.90. There may be an updated version somewhere for the effects added since v2.90.

 

Hope this long-winded explanation helps.

 

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13 hours ago, dannymartinez1 said:

I’m going to add a  buffered splitter before the Helix and was wondering if I should change the input impedance because of this.

 

When you place a buffer between the guitar and the Helix, the input impedance is going to become irrelevant. The output impedance from the buffered splitter isn't going to care what the Helix is set to... only passive guitar pickups do.

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On 8/30/2021 at 11:39 PM, rd2rk said:

There's two separate issues here. When you use a long cable, the impedance of the cable attenuates the high frequencies, and a buffer restores those frequencies to compensate.

If the Input impedance of the buffer is 1M, then that's the way the pickups are "loaded", just like going direct into an amp's input, because the Input impedance of most modern amps is 1M.

 

Because part of the tonal character of certain old pedals, mostly fuzzes and overdrives (facial fuzz, scream 808 for example), were less than 1M, putting them between the guitar and the amp input loaded the pickups differently, and that was part of their character. The Helix Guitar input has an analog circuit that allows the pickups to be loaded as though you had an actual analog pedal instead of the "virtual" Helix effect, if you set the Global setting to "First Active" and leave the preset set at AUTO. You need to be sure that the target effect is not after an active effect with a different impedance in order for this to work properly. But if a buffer with 1M input impedance (or any other real world effect with 1M impedance) is between the guitar and Helix , it defeats the purpose of that circuit. This is also true if you use a wireless, as the wireless loads the pickups at 1M.

 

So, if you use any of the "classic" fuzzes and whatnot that are in Helix (and I THINK some of the older model amps), and want the "classic" tone of those pedals/amps, you don't want to use a long cable, which increases the attenuation effect, or a buffer with 1M input impedance, or a wireless. If you must use a long cable with a buffer or a wireless, your best bet is to not use the "classic" pedals/amps (unless you just like the way they sound despite the lack of pickup loading effect). If you use the virtual pedals that had 1M impedance ITRW, it doesn't matter how you connect the guitar. But yeah, with a long cable you want to use a buffer to make up for the cable impedance.

 

Lastly, the analog impedance circuit is ONLY on the guitar input. The RETURNS are 1M.

 

NOTE: the above explanation is probably over-simplified, and someone better at explaining it might jump in to clarify. There's a list of the impedances of the various Helix effects, which I've posted previously (Helix 2.90 Amp, Effects List - Helix - Line 6 Community). The Excel file is in my first post in that thread. There's a possibility that some of the info could be wrong, as some of those classic pedals had different input impedances in different iterations, and there's no real way to know exactly which ones L6 modeled. Also, it's from v2.90. There may be an updated version somewhere for the effects added since v2.90.

 

Hope this long-winded explanation helps.

 

 

 

So awesome of you to respond with this. I've been really confused about this topic for some time. I had heard about some people mentioning impedance when it came to fuzz; now that you've explained how much character it adds I see a little more importance to it. I am definitely a modern player and don't touch any of the drives except the Minotaur and the Horizon Drive. This makes my life a lot easier, I was looking at all kinds of passive and active splitters/buffers and it was getting expensive. Plus my board is crowded as is. I'm going to skip having a splitter and just use a free Send/Return to achieve what the splitter was going to.

I set all of my presets at 1M. What's funny is my guitars have the same pickups, but my Baritone clips the Helix input at 1M. So I guess it hits too hard lol. 

 

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