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Solo boosts, IEM/stage versus FoH


GrampaBob
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Hello.  One regular very complaint I get from different sound techs is my solos always need more volume to pop out over the band in live shows.  If they aren't riding the faders during my solos to boost me, it seems +5 or +6 db volume boosts keeps them happy during the solos.  I use a gain/volume block on the end of my chain to accommodate this and engage during my SOLO snapshots.

 

My problem is, when I have the PC+ pointed at me on stage, this +6 db volume jump rips my head off and I find it very unnatural either using the PC+ or IEM.  I only like about a 2 or 3 +db boost on stage or in my ears.  I will add that if I dont go with 6 db, the band can't hear the solos either so I've been told.  Of course in my ears when I have my level a little higher in the mix, blows me away.

Thoughts?

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Split your paths so you have a separate signal for FOH (XLR from Helix, not from PC+) and digital for the PC+.

To spare blocks, instead of using two gain blocks, use the LEVEL parameter in the Output block of each path, both assigned to the same FS.

+3db for the digital out, +5 or 6 for the XLR out.

You're probably already doing this, but don't forget to set the PC+ Input level (Helix digital Output level) with the boost ON.

Likewise, during sound check, send the boosted signal to FOH, and be sure the sound tech knows that's what you're doing.

You'll need an IR block for the XLR path, but that gives the option to use a different IR to FOH vs PC+, which often sounds better anyway.

 

If you're already using the Path 2 split you may have to re-think things though. Consider a send block at the end with a DI to FOH for that.

You can use the boost output level of the send the same way as the Output block level assigned to the same FS as the digital output block.

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Oh I like this.  Yes I do get the techs to plug into the XLR on the PC+ because it's usually closer to the snake, but I like your solution if I'm understanding it.  I might need to hunt down a screenshot of this setup.  I do use a AES cable.  I might have to look for the PC+ input level boost ON part.  I'm not sure I've seen that option before.  I also thought I'd add that I just use the PC+ for the FRFR, I dont use any of the speaker perks so my cab/IR in my chain should be ok where it is I'm thinking if I understand this.

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There isn't a "boost ON" feature in the PC+ Input circuit.

To get the best input level on the PC+, you need to set the Helix Output high enough to get the PC+ Input LED in the yellow, with maybe occasional flashes of red when you really dig in. This has to be done with the lead boost ON, else when you hit the boost switch you could easily distort the PC+ Input. It's not an "OPTION", it's fine tuning the preset for use with the PC+. It's essentially the same thing that the FOH tech does with the preamp attenuation knob on your channel, which is why it's critical that he knows that the signal he's getting is your LEAD level, so he doesn't go cranking it up during your rhythm parts, then gets all upset when you hit the boost switch. Getting this right is the difference between a PRO sound tech and one of the waitresses' drug addled unemployed boyfriends. :-)

 

The disadvantage to using the XLR Out from the PC+ is that level, while independent of the PC+ Volume knob, is still dependent on the Helix Output level. If you give the PC+ input a 3db boost, that's what the XLRs get. Using the method outlined above gives you totally separate boost levels to the PC+ (3db) and the FOH (5-6db).

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Yes some good points and I am guilty for not giving the tech the LEAD volume at times and I guess I can hold them responsible for not asking for it either, goes both ways and the diff betweens a good tech and hey I'm a DJ but can do sound for your band.  I'll get my helix out and ya so I'll pull down a path near the end and make one digital other analogue and make the output levels into the same FS instead of a gain block which is great more for space.  I follow I think lol.  Thanks.

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13 hours ago, GrampaBob said:

My problem is, when I have the PC+ pointed at me on stage, this +6 db volume jump rips my head off and I find it very unnatural either using the PC+ or IEM. I only like about a 2 or 3 +db boost on stage or in my ears.  

 

IMO - I find a 6db boost a little radical myself.... normally (like you) 2-3db is all my parts really need to jump out. I suspect you are "under mixed" in the fronts but can't say that with certainly from behind a computer countless miles away - I'd have to hear it. 

 

You could split the difference.... turn the guitar in your own mix down a few DB, then the 6db boost will sit nicer when you kick it in. KEEP IT SIMPLE, I would never try setting up different "gain increases" for the FOH that I wouldn't use myself. (IMO)

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I think part of the problem you're having is caused from having too much stage sound which confuses things when you're dealing with a mixer.  The truth is you don't need a lot of stage sound with the tools we have nowadays.  Once you go ampless on stage and simply use good floor monitors or in ears you'd be surprised how easy it is to manage the stage volume and mix separate from the FOH volume which results in MUCH better management of your personal mix on stage while allowing the soundman to better craft the FOH mix.

My leads are maybe boosted 2 or 3 db and work fine both on stage as well as for the audience.  My floor monitor is mixed with my guitar level boosted slightly over what is sent to the audience and works fine live with no interaction from the board.

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22 hours ago, codamedia said:

I suspect you are "under mixed" in the fronts

 

A very common thing (for whatever reasons that we could only speculate about). Noticed it on recordings of both my own and others' gigs. And hence it's as common for some FOH dudes to complain about too little volume for solo passages.

The idea of sending different volume boosts to your monitor and FOH is valid but it would not work well for me as pretty often I have various degrees of volume levels, the leveling also originating at different positions in the signal chain. Sometimes it's me using the volume pot, sometimes it's a pedal, sometimes an amp channel switch and sometimes a plain volume boost. To reflect all these on a separate FOH out would be impossible in my case (it might work fine for others, though).

It's also quite different in different musical settings, even varies from tune to tune. In case your guitar is just one of several instruments in a comparatively big band with other busy players (especially in case there's a keyboard player delivering rather thick sounds, let's add some choire and maybe a horn section, percuasion and what not), it's likely that the FOH guy will keep the guitar volume rather low, maybe even thin things out a bit. In these scenarios you will likely need a lot of volume boost for your solos. On the other hand, in a typical rock trio, you may barely need any volume boost as your guitar is the main instrument to carry over important information and hence will be mixed in quite loud to start with already. Listen to Van Halen and you'll not notice big volume jumps.

What I recommend doing is trying to think as if you were the FOH dude. Turn your rhythm playing monitoring level down as much as possible (at least for a test), so it's more or less like you would mix it in yourself if you were the FOH. I promise that this will be a lot lower in volume than what you'd usually like to hear. In case you're recording yourself as well, you will be familiar with the issue already, you would never turn the sound as loud on playback as when actually recording. But it's a decent practice to get used to keeping that difference as small as possible.

As far as solo boosts themselves go, I never just push the volume up since decades already (I have already started doing so in the analog world but it gets a lot easier with multi FX units). Usually I want something to push the front of the amp already, especially on overdriven sounds but on clean sounds as well, just so I get a somewhat more sustain. For overdriven sounds it might be the usual suspects (plain boosts, treble boosts, a drive with low drive settings but pushing output volume), personally, I almost always use a light compressor since many years already, which will allow me to push a clean sound without overdrive as well. Used a Mooer Yellow Comp in the analog days, within the Helix I like the Vetta Comp quite a bit. I keep the compression rather low as I don't want to completely squash the guitar signal. For me, the same settings seem to work well for either clean and overdriven tones.
Next thing is adding an overall post-amp volume boost - but I'm never just adding a boost, I'm using an EQ instead. The main thing I'm doing here is to add some mids, which allow me to cut through better without running into harsh highs or muddy/overlapping lows. With the mids (fwiw, in my case usually something between 500Hz and 1kHz) boosted, the overall volume boost could be kept way more civil.

And last I usually also add a little additional room (reverb or delay) on solo sounds (not that it really helps with the volume issue but it adds some fullness to the sound).

The combination of these usually results in something more suitable both for me and the FOH folks (at least given the reduction in complaints ever since I'm doing it that way).

Needless to say, but still: All that doesn't help in case the FOH is undermixing your guitar to start with. But in that case, it's his/her responsibility to look out for solo spots and ride the fader accordingly. Most proper FOH folks will do that anyway.

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Thanks for the detailed comments.  I appreciate the time invested to answer.  Lots to look into and yes I also thought the mix had guitars nestled too far back and vocals front and center in most cases.  My tone is not scooped at all, more regular crunch then anything.  I think I'll dial back the solo levels to my old 2-3 db but I will also load up a backup setlist with the splits installed in case I get a tech who wants more oomph.

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Use the EQ block to boost 2K 10 decibel... place that block right before the amp.  I've been doing this on virtual and physical amps for the last 5 years.  And now this works just as well on the Helix.  Works like a charm.  Do NOT make it louder.  Make it piercings

 

Check out my "kitchen sink" preset: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Yumi3gTcxKQvqFgouNNu7jrQBdD54oyd/view?usp=sharing

Video explaining what's going in in the preset is here:

 

See my signal path for the solos (top row snapshots)

 

P.S.: I asked the sound guy if my sound balance was ok with this method and he assured me that it was: meaning he barely needed to boost me/lower my volume throughout.  We have been working together for several years, and this is the first time he was really happy with how little work he had to do.  I played a 22-song set in June using the Helix to FOH as my only effects/amp. 

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A 6db lift sounds like they are not at all interested in your rhythm playing. Of course, a lot depends on whether you are in a 2 guitar band or not.

 

If you use in ears, then things get much easier for everyone. Also the receiver sometimes has a limited built in to control the loudest sounds.

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Personally I think guitar players have gotten too used to using pedals/footswitches to do a lot of things that could easily be accomplished with changes in playing technique or using the controls on the guitar which is why soundmen get frustrated trying to keep them where they need to be in the mix.  It also accounts for why people keep running out of DSP on their Helix patches.

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One thing to remember, I do the same thing with lead boosts.....2 things really.

 

1) My band runs our own sound, we have a digital board that saves settings.  My gain structure on my board channel doesnt vary. 

2) This is where #1 leads into #2....The +6db boost would be great if every board you plug into is set at a 'unity' gain structure from your output to the speakers.  However, most boards are going to have a boost/cut at the channel input.  That boost/cut can either squash or explode your Lead Boost increase.   If this is someone you use often, gear wise as well, I'd have them maybe readjust/calibrate your channel so that what you get through your PC more closely mimics the FOH response. 

 

You definitely need to feel it out, but all depends on your FOH gear/sound guy. 

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4 hours ago, themetallikid said:

However, most boards are going to have a boost/cut at the channel input.  That boost/cut can either squash or explode your Lead Boost increase.

 

How is that? I mean, in case the channel input isn't clipping, 6dB are 6dB, no more, no less.

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11 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

Personally I think guitar players have gotten too used to using pedals/footswitches to do a lot of things that could easily be accomplished with changes in playing technique or using the controls on the guitar which is why soundmen get frustrated trying to keep them where they need to be in the mix.  It also accounts for why people keep running out of DSP on their Helix patches.

 

I couldn't agree more. My presets are loaded with "everything I might need" for each guitar I pick up... but I use very little in reality. I have a 3db boost on a footswitch for every preset, but rarely kick it in.... normally I just play with dynamics, then dig in when the time is MINE to fill :) There are so many ways to make a solo (or part) stand out, and more level (db) is not always the requirement. 

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5 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

 

How is that? I mean, in case the channel input isn't clipping, 6dB are 6dB, no more, no less.

Hey Sascha, I'm not sure that I'm the most articulate to explain it, but here are a few examples.  

 

3 scenarios, same presets, varied results.

 

As I've babbled about before, I run a preset per song.  Typically a rhythm/lead/additional effect snapshots as needed.  However those presets are usually based on a batch of 6 different rhythm sounds, and lead versions of those sounds.  I take great care/pain in getting those core presets to sound as level as I can by ear.  Also making sure that the lead boosts come across as 'enough' to come through over my other guitar player.  I even create 'half' lead snapshots if there is a lead line, but its something that still hides behind the vocals a bit (just adding my lead effects, not much in the way of a true volume boost).

 

For my examples, lets just use simple numbers that arent true but will explain my point.  All rhythm presets are designed at -4db at the output block.  All lead boost sounds take me to 0db at the output.  Here are the 3 scenarios I have run into (not just Helix, but other previous systems as well)

 

1. Our main PA system - has my guitar input trim set to +2db...  Most my stuff sounds pretty decent/level etc.

 

2.  We play at a place that has in house sound.  They are more used to real amps/cabs, I'm sending the full line level signal (disabling the volume knob)....they are usually blown away by the level of the signal at the input, so they adjust (as they should, lol) but lets say that board ends up at -4db on the channel strip.  I've found that this tends to squash the boost i've got in my presets that seems fine in scenario 1.

 

3.  We play a festival and the opposite of #2, the board ends up running my guitar at +10db.  My lead boosts are now much wider in their 'boost' and ripping peoples faces off.  

 

All three scenarios are using the same presets, but have given me varied results.  I suppose it could be something more in the monitoring signal patch with the PA, but that has been the main struggle I've had with setting lead boosts.  Especially before we had our own consistent PA.  From sound guy to sound guy it would vary, it made it really hard to settle on a specific boost for each sound.  I'd be at +6 and it wasnt enough, then went to +9 and it was ripping peoples faces off, so then I'd go back to +6 and still too hot, so I'd back it down to +3 and then its non existent...etc.   

 

Lots of other factors, I'm sure and maybe Im attributing the effect to the wrong cause.  Just my experience.

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8 hours ago, themetallikid said:

 

All three scenarios are using the same presets, but have given me varied results.  I suppose it could be something more in the monitoring signal patch with the PA, but that has been the main struggle I've had with setting lead boosts.  Especially before we had our own consistent PA.  From sound guy to sound guy it would vary, it made it really hard to settle on a specific boost for each sound.  I'd be at +6 and it wasnt enough, then went to +9 and it was ripping peoples faces off, so then I'd go back to +6 and still too hot, so I'd back it down to +3 and then its non existent...etc.   

 

Lots of other factors, I'm sure and maybe Im attributing the effect to the wrong cause.  Just my experience.

 

There really isn't much you can do about how each soundman gain stages your signal.  That's why I'm pretty conservative about how much I boost my signal level when it comes to leads.  As long as I'm sending a consistent signal level on every song and that signal level boosts slightly (maybe +2 or +3db) on leads, I've done all I can do.

Like you, we generally tend to run our own PA most of the time, and I try to gain stage all the signals on every channel at a consistent level just below unity and let the faders do the work of where that instrument or voice needs to sit in the mix.  Once I've done that I never have to touch a fader at all during any performance.  But the truth is, once you're on someone else's board all bets are off and you just have to trust them with the FOH mix.  As long as I'm getting a good stage mix through my stage monitor (which I do have input on), I've just come to terms with any soundman that wants to gain stage my signal differently is just going to have to drink his own poison.  If that means he has to ride the fader all night then so be it.

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11 hours ago, themetallikid said:

Lots of other factors, I'm sure and maybe Im attributing the effect to the wrong cause.  Just my experience.

 

I still don't get it. As long as there's no clipping happening on the console or some compression inserted on your channel, your boosts should be exactly the same through any PA. The worst to happen assuming there's no clipping and no compression would be wasting a little bit of headroom in case the input trim was set too low - but in times of 24bit processing (on digital consoles) that should be neglectable and have zero influence on your boost levels.
Having said all that, I have experienced it more than once that (usually unknown) FOH folks were inserting a compressor on my channel (sometimes on the monitoring only, for whatever reasons, usually you only do that with InEar vocal mixes to avoid excessive levels should there be some feedback, but even that has gotten rare), possibly their idea of shaping my sound. Whenever I notice anything like that, they're into some kinda trouble, really (I will happily accept a certain amount of frequency correction but no compression).
Whatever, as said, as long as your console channel is operating in a linear fashion, a 6dB boost will always be a 6dB boost, regardless of the input trim.

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1 hour ago, SaschaFranck said:

 

I still don't get it. As long as there's no clipping happening on the console or some compression inserted on your channel, your boosts should be exactly the same through any PA. The worst to happen assuming there's no clipping and no compression would be wasting a little bit of headroom in case the input trim was set too low - but in times of 24bit processing (on digital consoles) that should be neglectable and have zero influence on your boost levels.
Having said all that, I have experienced it more than once that (usually unknown) FOH folks were inserting a compressor on my channel (sometimes on the monitoring only, for whatever reasons, usually you only do that with InEar vocal mixes to avoid excessive levels should there be some feedback, but even that has gotten rare), possibly their idea of shaping my sound. Whenever I notice anything like that, they're into some kinda trouble, really (I will happily accept a certain amount of frequency correction but no compression).
Whatever, as said, as long as your console channel is operating in a linear fashion, a 6dB boost will always be a 6dB boost, regardless of the input trim.


I think there's a problem in the realities of modern digital mixers in some of your assumptions.  I know for an absolute fact because I've seen it now on QSC Touchmix and Soundcraft UI digital mixers that an arbitrary built in limiter comes into play on any channel where the signal hits around 8 or 10 db above unity.  I assume that's to avoid the possible damaging effects of digital overmodulation, but it's there nonetheless.  I can't attest to it on all digital mixers, but those particular two I have direct experience with.

So in the case of someone gain staging a signal above unity, they won't be getting 6db of boost depending on where the signal is trimmed to.  There's no problem on these consoles with a 6db boost or even peaks as long as it's intermittent and the main signal level is at or below unity.

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3 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

  I can't attest to it on all digital mixers, but those particular two I have direct experience with.

 

I'm pretty sure that they could be turned off, though. I know, their intention is extra safety, but no serious FOH guy would want an always on limiter, regardless of the purpose.

Apart from that, if it really only kicked in at 8-10dB above unity gain, you'd be in clipping heaven already. Unitiy gain in digital land = 0dB. Anything above will clip.
And then, even if the makers of the units think different about unity gain, being an FOH guy and allowing any signal to exceed unity gain by such an amount is like asking to be fired.

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9 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

 

There really isn't much you can do about how each soundman gain stages your signal.  That's why I'm pretty conservative about how much I boost my signal level when it comes to leads.  As long as I'm sending a consistent signal level on every song and that signal level boosts slightly (maybe +2 or +3db) on leads, I've done all I can do.

Like you, we generally tend to run our own PA most of the time, and I try to gain stage all the signals on every channel at a consistent level just below unity and let the faders do the work of where that instrument or voice needs to sit in the mix.  Once I've done that I never have to touch a fader at all during any performance.  But the truth is, once you're on someone else's board all bets are off and you just have to trust them with the FOH mix.  As long as I'm getting a good stage mix through my stage monitor (which I do have input on), I've just come to terms with any soundman that wants to gain stage my signal differently is just going to have to drink his own poison.  If that means he has to ride the fader all night then so be it.

Yeah, I agree.  Thats why with our stuff it sounds fine, and I try not to send a goosed signal to the board cause it just causes problems elsewhere.  And I trust the FOH mix/guys, I'm just saying my experience with monitor mixes/IEMs, in reference to the OP question is that it can vary if your going through multiple different systems/gain structures on consoles. 

 

Quote

 

 

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7 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

 

I still don't get it. As long as there's no clipping happening on the console or some compression inserted on your channel, your boosts should be exactly the same through any PA. The worst to happen assuming there's no clipping and no compression would be wasting a little bit of headroom in case the input trim was set too low - but in times of 24bit processing (on digital consoles) that should be neglectable and have zero influence on your boost levels.
Having said all that, I have experienced it more than once that (usually unknown) FOH folks were inserting a compressor on my channel (sometimes on the monitoring only, for whatever reasons, usually you only do that with InEar vocal mixes to avoid excessive levels should there be some feedback, but even that has gotten rare), possibly their idea of shaping my sound. Whenever I notice anything like that, they're into some kinda trouble, really (I will happily accept a certain amount of frequency correction but no compression).
Whatever, as said, as long as your console channel is operating in a linear fashion, a 6dB boost will always be a 6dB boost, regardless of the input trim.

I'm not disagreeing in theory with you at all...and agree with lots of what you said here.  Just something I have noticed.  Again, it may be something else causing that to happen, but on my end....presets were consistent, leveled and not a problem other times. 

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3 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

 

I'm pretty sure that they could be turned off, though. I know, their intention is extra safety, but no serious FOH guy would want an always on limiter, regardless of the purpose.

Apart from that, if it really only kicked in at 8-10dB above unity gain, you'd be in clipping heaven already. Unitiy gain in digital land = 0dB. Anything above will clip.
And then, even if the makers of the units think different about unity gain, being an FOH guy and allowing any signal to exceed unity gain by such an amount is like asking to be fired.

I'm not sure we're talking the same thing.  The measurement being used at the input level on all digital consoles is always analog when receiving a signal through an XLR or 1/4" input, and that's what you're adjusting when you turn the trim/gain knob on any channel.  Both the QSC and Soundcraft systems as well as probably several others provide a digital signal level adjustment inside the workings of the console that can be used to further adjust the signal post analog to digital conversion, but in all cases it always peaks out at the same analog signal measurement which tells me they limit how high the digital signal level is allowed to go for exactly the reasons you're talking about as far as digital signal limits.  Just like the Helix, there's an upper limit allowed on the digital signal level, but that doesn't stop you from increasing your analog output post D/A conversion using the Helix volume knob beyond what a receiving A/D would be able to safely convert.  So somewhere they have to place a limit.  I'm sure that's the same logic being used on powered speakers which implement a limiter in their circuitry between the incoming analog signal you adjust on the speaker's gain knob and the internal digital signal being used by the bi-amps and DSP processors.

 

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2 hours ago, themetallikid said:

Yeah, I agree.  Thats why with our stuff it sounds fine, and I try not to send a goosed signal to the board cause it just causes problems elsewhere.  And I trust the FOH mix/guys, I'm just saying my experience with monitor mixes/IEMs, in reference to the OP question is that it can vary if your going through multiple different systems/gain structures on consoles. 

 

 

That's very true and that's why I go to such great lengths to measure my output signal levels on every patch so that on a typical mixing board it will almost always read at just below unity at mic level and full volume on my Helix volume knob, and I never adjust that for different boards.  That ensures a consistent analog signal level at the board on all my presets, and they can adjust that however they want to from there.  But the one thing I won't do is adjust my internal patch levels or global levels on the Helix....that's where problems can undoubtedly begin to bite you.

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1 hour ago, DunedinDragon said:

That's very true and that's why I go to such great lengths to measure my output signal levels on every patch so that on a typical mixing board it will almost always read at just below unity at mic level and full volume on my Helix volume knob, and I never adjust that for different boards.  That ensures a consistent analog signal level at the board on all my presets, and they can adjust that however they want to from there.  But the one thing I won't do is adjust my internal patch levels or global levels on the Helix....that's where problems can undoubtedly begin to bite you.

Yeah for sure.  And I havent adjusted my outputs, I still typically design presets the same way, and dont have to adjust our stuff much at all when I redo my presets from scratch....its the lead boosts that I've really noticed it.  And the only thing that makes sense in this skull shaped peanut of mine is what the board could be doing boosting/cutting at the input trim to either eliminate/expand the difference in my rhythm/lead boosts...unintentionally of course....just what i've noticed. 

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Just my two cents... I run our live sound for out band so I don't have anyone to ride faders for me. We are a two guitar band so I find that in order for the solos to stand out, both of us need to boost significantly more than if only one guitar player. Both of us use a mix of volume boost in the amp section, maybe a slight boost at the end of the chain, but more importantly, mid EQ boost does wonders for making it stand out in the mix. And that is what you are really looking for. Maybe a little high end too. 

I go out and see a lot of other local cover bands in the area, and more often than not, particularly in two guitar bands, the guitar solos simply do not stand out when they should. It's not just a volume thing. 

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