Tuner Input Settings for Multiple Guitars

[DOndek]

HI all.  I use a variety of inputs for guitars at gigs and am trying to figure out how to assign the tuner as it seems like it's a global setting.  I have an electric with magnetics and a piezo bridge that run a TRS from the guitar to 2 1/4" outputs (mag & piezo), the magnetic goes to Guitar In, the piezo goes to Return 1 for input on my patch (both magnetic and piezo are in the same patch).  I also run 2 acoustic guitars, which run to an A/B box and then into Return 2 on another patch (that both acoustics share the same patch).  The problem is that if I use the Multi input option for the tuner, then the acoustic patch and the piezo don't get picked up by the tuner as Returns are apparently not in the Multi list of inputs.  When I assign the tuner to Return 2 on the acoustic patch, then the tuner for the magnetics doesn't work as it appears Tuner input is a global setting that cuts across all patches.  I would assume the tuner input setting could be set at the patch level, but that does not seem to be the case, or at least I don't know how to change that.  Please help!  

[rd2rk]

I'm going to guess that, since the Returns can be used for all sorts of things, including 4cm, that's the reason why they're not included in the MULTI setting - potential for feedback loops?

 

Anyhow, you'll probably need to use an external tuner between your A/B box and the Returns, or contact tuners on the acoustics.

[DOndek]

Thx for the reply.  I'm not sure what 4cm is, but I think I get what you're saying.  It's unfortunate if there isn't a way to make these changes for the tuner input at the patch level, which leads to an even more unfortunate situation where I would need to run an external tuner, as I had to do at my gig yesterday when I discovered the problem, but had hoped that was just a workaround.  It seems to me that if there isn't a way to do that, then there is a very big limitation with the Helix for players who use more than one instrument at a gig, as it would require either external tuners or more complex external switchboxes.  (sigh) 

[rd2rk]

You've heard the old saying, "you can make some of the people happy some of the time...."?

 

Go to Ideascale, do a search, VOTE for it! And if it hasn't yet been proposed yet, DO IT!

[DOndek]

Ha I have heard the expression, but how many guitar players play only one guitar?  IMO, it's a no brainer that multiple guitar inputs would be available.  And I've been able to work around that with Returns, but apparently with some pretty important limitations (like being able to tune!).  Unfortunate. 

[phil_m]

9 minutes ago, DOndek said:

Ha I have heard the expression, but how many guitar players play only one guitar?  IMO, it's a no brainer that multiple guitar inputs would be available.  And I've been able to work around that with Returns, but apparently with some pretty important limitations (like being able to tune!).  Unfortunate. 

The vast majority of players are probably playing one guitar, really… Which is probably why it hasn’t come up more often. I have seen this issue mentioned a couple times since the Helix has been out, though.

 

I mean, you can always bend down and turn the knob to switch the setting on the tuner for now. I understand it’s not ideal, though. Having the tuner settings saved per preset would be a nice option.

[codamedia]

1 hour ago, DOndek said:

It seems to me that if there isn't a way to do that, then there is a very big limitation with the Helix for players who use more than one instrument at a gig, as it would require either external tuners or more complex external switchboxes.  (sigh) 

 

I am a multi-instrumentalist and have discovered this same issue a few years ago. There are certainly things Line 6 can do to improve the tuner in regards to functionality.... but for the most part, for the majority of users, it just works! What bothers us is not a "big limitation".... it's just an annoyance that the vast majority of users don't experience.  

 

If you have a spare SEND on the Helix you won't need "external switches"... and you won't need to run a tuner IN LINE... but you will need an external tuner. Use the SEND to feed an external tuner and get creative with the send block (preset to preset) as to whether or not you want it always engaged, or only engaged when toggled. There is no shortage of options in this setup. 

 

NOTE: The SEND Trick can also be done within the Tuner Settings... but you are back to the limits of the tuner inputs. My suggestion places a SEND BLOCK on each preset... so you have full control from preset to preset. 

 

35 minutes ago, DOndek said:

how many guitar players play only one guitar?  IMO, it's a no brainer that multiple guitar inputs would be available. 

 

Most guitar players swap guitars using the same cable or wireless.... they don't have everything plugged in at all times ready to go! Again... I'm like you and utilize those returns to my advantage for different instruments.... but we are not the "majority of users"! 

[DOndek]

Appreciate the replies.  In our band, we often transition from one song to the next, and I move from 6 string acoustic to 12 string acoustic to electric throughout the gig, so I don't have time to bend down and make setting adjustments or unplug guitars.  I have a hard time believing that I'm in the minority of guitarists who use more than one guitar at a gig and/or who wouldn't like to have the option not to have to switch cables, etc., but that's just my opinion.  Bottom line is, those workarounds won't work for me.  For how flexible the Helix is, it just doesn't seem like being able to change the tuner settings at the preset level would be rocket science for the designers.  I appreciate the Send concept and I do have a Send I could use, but if I have to run an external tuner, then I may as well run in line after my switch box, which it also appears I will need to employ my larger Analog Man custom switch box from years ago in order to handle the routing pre-Helix due to the input limitations.  Frustrating and rather surprising this isn't an option of the tuner inputs.  Thanks for the replies, all.  

[theElevators]

1 hour ago, DOndek said:

Ha I have heard the expression, but how many guitar players play only one guitar?  IMO, it's a no brainer that multiple guitar inputs would be available.  And I've been able to work around that with Returns, but apparently with some pretty important limitations (like being able to tune!).  Unfortunate. 

 

Here are some options I can offer you:

 

1. sell your A/B box, and buy the Polytune tuner.  Add a "Send" at the end of your signal path that always goes to the tuner.  Create a different preset for each one of your guitars, each preset with a different input (Guitar, Return 1, etc...).  And off you go.

 

Or

 

2. go wireless!  I use this system and it's pretty good https://www.amazon.com/Shure-GLXD16-Digital-Guitar-Wireless/dp/B00CB39BXQ/

it's perfect for all your concerts, unless you are Angus young and have to run 1/2 mile into the audience.  You can pair multiple wireless transmitters with the same receiver.  So rather than bother with the input selection, just turn down the transmitter on one guitar, and turn it on on the other one.  It syn's up in 2 seconds. 

 

[DunedinDragon]

3 minutes ago, DOndek said:

Appreciate the replies.  In our band, we often transition from one song to the next, and I move from 6 string acoustic to 12 string acoustic to electric throughout the gig, so I don't have time to bend down and make setting adjustments or unplug guitars.  I have a hard time believing that I'm in the minority of guitarists who use more than one guitar at a gig and/or who wouldn't like to have the option not to have to switch cables, etc., but that's just my opinion.  Bottom line is, those workarounds won't work for me.  For how flexible the Helix is, it just doesn't seem like being able to change the tuner settings at the preset level would be rocket science for the designers.  I appreciate the Send concept and I do have a Send I could use, but if I have to run an external tuner, then I may as well run in line after my switch box, which it also appears I will need to employ my larger Analog Man custom switch box from years ago in order to handle the routing pre-Helix due to the input limitations.  Frustrating and rather surprising this isn't an option of the tuner inputs.  Thanks for the replies, all.  

 

Well, it's not a function of whether it's a hard thing to implement or not.  It's a function of how many people would want the functionality and how it might drive influence or sales of units.  One look through Ideascale and you'll see all sorts of things in there with very high approval numbers.  That's your competition for getting the feature you want implemented.  If your needs are somewhat particular or specialized to your situation you may not find a lot of people that crave to have a feature like that on their Helix.

Even though I'm a multi-instrumentalist (electric gtr, acoustic, banjo, mandolin, resonator) I've never found this to be a problem.  I simply move my wireless transmitter which just unplugs and plugs in if I need to tune something else and I tune everything before before the gig and seldom need to do much afterwards, so it's not a feature I'd be needing so much.

[codamedia]

15 hours ago, DOndek said:

In our band, we often transition from one song to the next, and I move from 6 string acoustic to 12 string acoustic to electric throughout the gig, so I don't have time to bend down and make setting adjustments or unplug guitars. 

 

Join the club.... most of us learn how to work around this "little" problem. 

 

15 hours ago, DOndek said:

I appreciate the Send concept and I do have a Send I could use, but if I have to run an external tuner, then I may as well run in line after my switch box,

 

Maybe you missed the point... I understand that you want to keep external boxes to a minimum. Why add both a tuner and a switch box, when the Helix can take the place of a switch box already. A tuner is all that is needed for the send method to work, and gives you options on a preset to preset level. 

 

14 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

Even though I'm a multi-instrumentalist (electric gtr, acoustic, banjo, mandolin, resonator) I've never found this to be a problem.  I simply move my wireless transmitter which just unplugs and plugs in if I need to tune something else and I tune everything before before the gig and seldom need to do much afterwards, so it's not a feature I'd be needing so much.

 

That's what I do now for all my string instruments that I hold. I find it only takes a moment to unplug/switch/plugin a new instrument. I also don't like having a ton of cables floating around my side of the stage :) 

My pedal Steel is permanently connected to a RETURN, and on the rare occasions I play keyboards another return is reserved for that. 

 

[DunedinDragon]

2 hours ago, codamedia said:

My pedal Steel is permanently connected to a RETURN, and on the rare occasions I play keyboards another return is reserved for that. 

 

Pssst...my dirty little secret is I pre-record my pedal steel and keyboard parts and use Ableton Live to provide them as tracks rather than cart that stuff to gigs.

[DOndek]

Hi all, thanks for the replies. 

@codamedia, I don't think I missed the point, but was just saying that if I have to run an external tuner, then I need external boxes, so using my small A/B switch box isn't a huge deal, but I would prefer not to have any external boxes.  But I get the point, see below re: using Returns for the 2 acoustics instead of the A/B box.  

 

@theElevators, I used to run wireless years ago and the systems have improved and become smaller, but I don't think I'll go that route again (and no, I don't need to run around the stage, at least not anymore, LOL!).  I could potentially ditch the A/B box for the 2 acoustic guitar which share a patch currently, and create a patch for each guitar and use Return 2 (for 6 stg acoustic) and Return 3 (for 12 stg acoustic).  Then I could potentially use a Send block at the end of each of those patches to go to an external tuner (still not thrilled about an external tuner box when there is a tuner on the Helix!).  It won't solve the tuner problem for the hybrid electric as the magnetics (Guitar In) and Piezo (Return 1) run through one patch as I need to send both signals at the same time, however, I could just tune with the magnetics via the Multi option on the tuner, so that's workable.  Question on the Send block to external tuner: how do I mute the signal when tuning then (as I don't want my signal output to the PA when tuning)?  

[theElevators]

Your tuner should have a return path as well. So send out to return. That way the tuner will mute your path. 

[DOndek]

OK, so I'll need to do Send & Return for the tuner, and then when I engage the tuner, it will mute the output?  If so, I have a problem with Sends/Returns as I'd be using Ret 1 (piezo), Ret 2 (acoustic 6), Return 3 (acoustic 12) and Return 4 is already reserved for an FX loop on the magnetic/piezo patch.  

[theElevators]

 

29 minutes ago, DOndek said:

OK, so I'll need to do Send & Return for the tuner, and then when I engage the tuner, it will mute the output?  If so, I have a problem with Sends/Returns as I'd be using Ret 1 (piezo), Ret 2 (acoustic 6), Return 3 (acoustic 12) and Return 4 is already reserved for an FX loop on the magnetic/piezo patch.  

4 more solutions:

1. Add a volume pedal at the end of your path, so you can turn yourself down when tuning. 

2. Create a snapshot that mutes all sounds.  You can assign the overall output volume to snapshots, and save it with the output turned down, or add some kind of a static volume pedal at the end of your chain.  That static volume pedal is always at "0%", but when it's bypassed, the sound is not muted. 

3. Create a preset that mutes all your sounds.  Using Command Center, place that preset wherever you need it.

4. In stomp mode, also add a block that mutes your sound.  Whatever has an output level control, saved at "0%".   Bypassed/un-bypassed will unmute/mute your sound.

[phil_m]

32 minutes ago, DOndek said:

OK, so I'll need to do Send & Return for the tuner, and then when I engage the tuner, it will mute the output?  If so, I have a problem with Sends/Returns as I'd be using Ret 1 (piezo), Ret 2 (acoustic 6), Return 3 (acoustic 12) and Return 4 is already reserved for an FX loop on the magnetic/piezo patch.  

You wouldn’t need an effects loop or send and return. You just need a single mono Send block to send the signal to your tuner. If you want to mute it while active, just turn the Dry Thru parameter all the way down. There’s no reason have the signal back from the tuner.

[codamedia]

5 hours ago, DOndek said:

Question on the Send block to external tuner: how do I mute the signal when tuning then (as I don't want my signal output to the PA when tuning)?  

 

Two ways I would do this.....

1. If you run a volume pedal in your chain, place the send anywhere before the volume pedal and leave it to set to send the signal to both to the rest of the path, and to the send.  When you lower you volume pedal, you have silent tuning.  The tuner is always getting signal, so you also have live tuning available at all times. 
2. Insert the send and have it set to MUTE the signal to the rest of the path. Place that SEND block on a footswitch and use turn it on/off as required. 

There is no need to do a complete loop...