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settings levels for lead & rhythm patches


Roberyj
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im having a really hard time getting my levels right between my Lead & rhythm patches,im just wondering if it's any easier running just straight into the FX loop using 2 cable method,im just using the Helix for FX & running a Mesa Boogie Dual rectifier with my main IR a Marshal Tone Tubby,just seems i spend most of my time trying to get my lead sound a little louder with more punch than playing,i've doing this with Modeling since the original POD so im no beginner when it comes to doing this just looking for some tips,im  usings 1 tube screamer to add some crunch for the rhythm sound with the level @ 12 & the gain @ 12 & a  2nd Tube screamer with the Level @ 1 oclock & the gain @ 1 oclock then on the IR im bringing the Bass cut up to about Mid way so its cuts through a little,i guess my question is,is there a better way to do this,im using the same patch for 90% of what im doing,thanks

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the combined wisdom seems to be - Set levels at rehearsal - or at least at performance volume.

 

My own opinion is that people overthink this.  Before the digital age people happily did solos by either turning up their guitar, or by stepping on a pedal.  No-one worried about the tiny tonal changes that we currently debate.  Sometimes solos were thin and cutty and not that high in the mix...sometimes they were fat and loud in the mix, sometimes they were wet, sometimes dry....we accepted the challenge of the performance and worked with the results and he music benefited.  Great performances were dome with a multitude of different tones and levels and that variety was a good thing.

Now I'm not saying we shouldn't use the technology to fine tune what we do or to plan more for exactly what we want but there is no right answer.  Santana's lead tone works because its all mids.....Carlton's is way thin and toppy - and set lower in the mix, Holdworth's is very compressed, Robben Fords is more dynamic....and all of these example have fairly simple signal chains and no major tweaking 

 

My own approach is to use amp settings rather than adding pedals (im talking virtually in my Helix). My lead patches or snapshots have completely different amp gain and tone control settings than my rhythm patches...but no changes to the speaker/IR end.  I set levels using the Channel Volume while playing to backing tracks as loud as I can.

There is no right way to boost for solos....there is only what you want to do as an artist.  Embrace it.

 

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What I'm doing since ages (yes, even back when everything but delay/reverb was analog, using loop switchers) is to add a little boost kinda thing in front of the amp (usually either a light drive or a light compressor, pushing the input a bit) and an EQ behind the amp for the final boost level and to sometimes add a little bit of mid boost, too.

Worked perfectly fine in the analog world, works perfectly fine with an amp, using the 4 cable method and also works just fine in an all digital setup. Also works with a whole bandwidth of basic sounds, requiring pretty little finetuning.

I could post a sample patch and a sound snipplet, in case you wanted.

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Hi,

I suspect you problem is about gain staging.

So the first question is do you have any headroom left in your amp?

If you run it already into overdrive with the master well up, you might not have enough headroom to make much of a difference.

Referring to the above post, in the good old days, if you were already driving you non master volume stack into crunch, you really didn't get muck/any volume increase when you increased the drive - but then you hoped your FOH guy (who used to be close to being another member of the band) knew when to push up your volume.

If you are maintaining headroom (you could turn up your amp and get more volume), then you can get a solo boost.

You won't get that from putting a gain pedal in front of your amp unless you are running totally clean.

When you say you are running 2 cable - are you saying you feed the Helix into the effects return of the front of the amp?

If the front of the amp, and the preamp is already at crunch level, you can't get a volume boost.

You need to be running into the FX return (probably 4 cable system, unless you just want to use your expensive amp as a power amp and not for it's sound)

So let me try to make that a bit clearer - 

Your amp has a preamp and a power amp - between those is the fx send and return.

Now most gain sounds come (especially on a modern amp like the Dual Rec) from the preamp.

The gain sound is created by pushing the preamp into clipping - as in driving it till its past maximum volume.  So more gain - on the amp or from a pedal in front won't give you more volume - in fact the heavily overdriven sound probably cuts through less (you talk about dropping lows for cut - that's a kind of workaround)

Now it is very likely your power amp is not working flat out (or you play extremely loud!).

So it is very possible turning up you power amp will actually increase your volume - generally if you can turn up the master and get more volume, that is the control on your power amp.

So - if you run in 4 cable method, you can increase the level going to your power amp - that is effectively turning up the master and will give you a solo boost.

It can be as simple as a send and return with a boost (try 3dB) on the return in your Helix.  Obviously you need to be connecting that send and return to your FX loop on the amp!  Hence 4 cable method.

If you start doing that, you will almost certainly discover that delays and reverbs (chorus and flange etc) also work better in the FX send chain.

There are lots of videos on youtube about 4 cable method......time to study up!

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I'm repeating myself about 5 times for sure...

 

But.......  my controversial method of boosting leads is to add a 10 db 2K boost right before my amp block--Mail Order Twin at it's pretty clean setting.  I have been doing this for about 3 years and it mostly works... mostly meaning that on average it's loud enough, and sometimes too loud, sometimes not loud enough believe it or not. 

 

It all depends on your band and the venue.  I have used the same boost in a small living room type of a setup and was told my solos should have been louder.  I played an outdoor set and my solos were just right.  I also played in a medium-sized bare walls type of a place and my solos were deafening... 

 

In the past, I have been in a power trio types of bands where there was no need for a solo boost. 

 

So in short, If you want to have a balls to the wall loud confident solo, to project over a horn section/keys, try my method.  For me 10 db is a magic number.  To hear it in context, see below.  This "magic" frequency range also cleans up your solos, they become more piercing and twangy.

 

Also pro tip: search existing forum threads, because the solo boost is discussed at least once/twice a month. :)

 

 

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I actually boost low frequencies for my solo boost. The logic is that I'm not necessarily trying to make it sound louder, but closer, and so I'm using the same concept as the proximity effect in microphones, where the closer you get to the mic, the more bass content it has. Cali Q block with 80 Hz set to +6 and 240 Hz set to +3. Seems to work.

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11 minutes ago, zappazapper said:

I actually boost low frequencies for my solo boost. The logic is that I'm not necessarily trying to make it sound louder, but closer, and so I'm using the same concept as the proximity effect in microphones, where the closer you get to the mic, the more bass content it has. Cali Q block with 80 Hz set to +6 and 240 Hz set to +3. Seems to work.

 

Could you post a sound example? From my experience, these are the very frequencies adding mud and not helping a solo sound to cut through at all.

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2 hours ago, theElevators said:

my controversial method of boosting leads is to add a 10 db 2K boost right before my amp block--Mail Order Twin at it's pretty clean setting.

 

But that only boosts the overall level sufficiently in case the amp isn't driving much already. If you push the front end of a driven amp, all you'll get is more gain but hardly much more level.

And that's precisely what an EQ in an FX loop (or post amp in the modeling world) is adressing. It's a perfectly shapeable volume boost, could be perfectily linear or with whatever frequencies enhanced or cut.

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2 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said:

 

Could you post a sound example? From my experience, these are the very frequencies adding mud and not helping a solo sound cut through at all.

Mmm...  probably not...  I played my first gig in a year and a half on Saturday and I planned to record it but, to make a long story short, COVID restrictions made it impossible. But I can say anecdotally that it worked great. The thing is my tone doesn't really have a lot of "mud" to begin with. The cabinet I use is pretty tight in the low end and seems to be able to handle as much bass as I can throw at it without flubbing out. And yes, I imagine that it is subject to some frequency smearing from the bass guitar but I'm also not really trying to make it sound more "bassy", just closer. Also, I've never agreed with the concept of trying to make it "cut through" by adding mids or highs or whatever people do. I already like my tone for lead work and I already like my volume for lead work. I just want it to be more "out front". From a psychoacoustic perspective, to me that means a little more low frequency content. 

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i've plenty of headroom on my Dual Rectifier,im  not using any amp models just using the Helix for fx,im adjusting the marshall tone tuby the level for more db for leads on the leads just trying figure out a way thats more uniform

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18 hours ago, zappazapper said:

I actually boost low frequencies for my solo boost. The logic is that I'm not necessarily trying to make it sound louder, but closer, and so I'm using the same concept as the proximity effect in microphones, where the closer you get to the mic, the more bass content it has. Cali Q block with 80 Hz set to +6 and 240 Hz set to +3. Seems to work.

 

Hi Zappazapper

The proximity effect is not a psychoacoustic effect.

The increase in bass response that happens on a cardiod microphone is a function of the mic design and not  related to the way the human brain perceives sound.

 

The key psychoacoustic effects for distance are pre-delay  and high frequency content.

 

Pre-delay is the time difference between hearing the direct sound from the source, and any reflections or reverb from the environment.  In simple terms, the closer your ear is to the source the shorter the pre-delay.  In a large space say a singer in the middle of the room 40 feet from the wall  and a listener standing 5 feet away from the singer  , the direct sound will take about 5 milliseconds to arrive and the reflection a bit over 60 ms giving a pre-delay of 55ms.  If the listener moves further into the room say 30ft from the singer, the direct sound will take around 30ms, making the predelay only 30ms.....(this is all a bit simplified but that's the basic idea).  To use this in practice, (assuming you use a reverb on your patches) make the Rhythm patch predelay short a(0 - 15 ms) and the solo predelay long (50 - 100ms).  This will create an illusion that the solo is happening closer to the listener.

 

The psycho acoustic effect of high freq content is determined by the amount of absorption done by the air between the source and the listener and is not as useful in this content.  Generally the further away the source is the less high Freq - so this suggests  Rhythm tones from be less bright than solos....in modern music thats not always the case.

 

If you want an intimate sound, go for very long pre-delay and lots of very high freq content , but not too loud(like a mother whispering to the baby in her arms - I'm being serious here as the brain builds models based on experience).  

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Well then our ears must work like cardioid microphones, because if I play music through a set of earbuds and stand 10 feet away from them, all I can hear is the cymbals, but somehow the further I jam them in my ear, the more bass content they seem to produce. At any rate, that's what I use for a solo boost and to me it sounds more "up front" without necessarily sounding louder, which is what I want. 

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Quote

i've plenty of headroom on my Dual Rectifier,im  not using any amp models just using the Helix for fx,im adjusting the marshall tone tuby the level for more db for leads on the leads just trying figure out a way thats more uniform

Then do yourself a favour and look at a few videos on 4 cable method and give it a try!

There's a lot of "noise" in this thread - just try it!

Can't be bothered looking for the best video on the subject, but chances are this one is good enough!

 

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2 hours ago, zappazapper said:

Well then our ears must work like cardioid microphones, because if I play music through a set of earbuds and stand 10 feet away from them, all I can hear is the cymbals, but somehow the further I jam them in my ear, the more bass content they seem to produce.

firstly - not arguing what works for you - just the science of psychoacoustics.

 

Ear buds are designed to pump energy into a very small closed space...maybe 1 Milliliter.   That same amount of energy pumped into a whole room....its no wonder you cant hear the bass!

 

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5 minutes ago, lawrence_Arps said:

Ear buds are designed to pump energy into a very small closed space...maybe 1 Milliliter.   That same amount of energy pumped into a whole room....its no wonder you cant hear the bass!

But somehow you can still hear the high end...

 

And fair enough, I can't make a credible objective argument against the very credible objective argument you made, but just anecdotally, I'm sitting in a bar right now, and the people sitting at the other end of the bar just don't have as much low end content in their voice as the guy sitting beside me, whose voice isn't particularly bassy. You might be right that he also has more high-end also, but as we're talking about a "solo boost", my thinking is that I don't really want to touch the high-end of my tone because I don't want to mess with a tone I already like, and because I'm playing a solo, adding a bit of low end is just kind of adding a bit more thump, as opposed to if I added 6 dB of low end to distorted rhythm guitar.

 

My advice is to try it in a full volume performance or rehearsal situation. I'm willing to accept the facts you pointed out as correct, as I don't have a credible counter argument, but it's been the most successful "solo boost" strategy I've tried, to my own ears. 

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I Think everyone is misunderstanding the question im asking,im using the same preset with a rhythm preset & a Lead preset using the 4 cable method & im boosting the level in the IR & cutting the Bass a little with the Bass cut,which works,im was just wondering if there's an easier way to do this?

 

 

 

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