Headrush 112 vs Tech 21 Power Engine for bass?

[ChaserHUN]

Hey!

I'm looking into buying a Helix LT. 

I currently playing bass in a band on a Hartke HA3500 with XL410 cabs. Sounds amazing, but hate lugging it around. Tuning in A#

For frfr speakers based on reviews my choices are the Headrush 112 and Tech 21 Power Engine Deuce Deluxe. Wich one would you go with?
Are these loug enough for a band practice? Drummer, 2 guitars with 212 cabs and a singer. Do they have enough low end etc?
Does the Tech 21 sound more natural because it is made of wood?
How big of a differrence there are? Because the Headrush is 2000W and and Tech 21 is 200W.

There are pretty much mixed opinions on frfr speakers. Some say it's awesome, some say lack low end, not loud enough etc. Starting to drive me nuts.

[ShelbyMustangGt]

I can only answer for the HR112.

For our gig 2 weeks ago one of our guitarists bought a HR112 as a monitor. We used it as a kind of "side-fill" to acompany the monitors blasting in our faces.

As I stood on  his side he just went and took the 2nd XLR out of my Helix Floor (1st XLR Out to FOH) and put it into his HR112. What can I say? His guitar(s) (Standard D to Drop A) as well as my five-string with some good bass distortion were awesome sounding. No mud. No nastyness whatsoever.

BUT: We used it only for some monitoring. Could be in a band practice it can't sufficient bring the deep notes. Also note that we played Metal. Modern Metal, but not just "Chugga-Chugga". More of the "16th notes on bass throughout the song work grrrrreat". Could be with some slappy Funk it lacks the headroom.

My opinion: It worked for me and I would definetly buy it if I need such a thing. Just try it and return it (if the stores at yours have this policy).

[spaceatl]

I have two Alto TS212 monitors and one TS315. I have used a single ts212 playing bass for rehearsal. It is just barely enough in a small studio 3 pc situation. two ts212 work better than one for bass...I generally use the ts315. for bigger shows i use all three. the ts315 goes where a conventional bass amp would go or I side fire it. The alto is the same oem guts as the headrush. I really like them and they are holding up very nicely. I play guitar and bass and have been using the ts212s for years. I did have two ts212 subs but I downsized to the single 15...it made more sense for me. I used IEMs sometimes and don't need any of them.

[ChaserHUN]

I had an Alto TS115A with the POD back then, sounded horrible. 

My concern is that the headrush lower frequency response is 46Hz and we play in A# wich is half down from the standard 5 string. I don't know if there will be enough low end.

[DunedinDragon]

Our bass player is just fine using a Yamaha DXR12 FRFR as a monitor and going direct into the mixer.  He was using a dedicated bass modeling pedal for a while, but after it stopped working he just went direct through a DI box and thinks it works fine for him.  Of course we also have a QSC KS112 subwoofer with helps a LOT with the low end, so he's quite happy with his tone.  But that's a premium quality FRFR so I can't vouch in any way for a cheaper monitor like a Headrush112.  In our band's situation none of us use stage amps and we all go direct, so that makes a difference as well.  The more amps on stage the more noise on stage so even a subwoofer might not be as much of a help in that situation.

[ChaserHUN]

Interesting, the Yamaha has a 52-20000Hz frequency response, the QSC subwoofer 38-121Hz.

Got an e-mail from Tech 21 and they said the Power Engine Deuce Deluxe has a 20-20000Hz frequency response.

[rd2rk]

First - Your Hartke rig is one of the best all around bass stage rigs ever made. Depending on the type of gigs you play, you may want to try a modern 2-12 or even 2-10 BASS cab to cut weight.

 

Second - after searching both Talk Bass and "The Bottom Line" on TGP, I found only a couple of Deuce Deluxe users, and they added cabs to get a fuller sound on stage.

 

My HR FRFR112 sounds fine with bass, but I don't think it would cut it with a truly LOUD band, or with a down-tuned 5 string at higher volume.

Since I no longer play in LOUD bands, and don't play 5-string at all, take it for what it's worth, considering 50+ years playing bass in bar bands.

 

[ChaserHUN]

I know it is a great rig. But what is the point having it if a lot of scenarios I can't use my own rig and the other the cab is never miced up?

Also what is the point of a Helix and having custom IRs if I run it through a standard bass cab?

Really I would just need the HR or the PEDD for rehearsal or an extra stage monitoring. We don't play loud even though we play metal. No need for insane loudness, we want to preserve our hearing. 

There great reviews on it on sweetwater, and maybe 2 people said it sounded better than the headrush or the friedman frfr and was loud enough. 

Also the Kemper Cab is "only" 200W and many people said it is loud as hell. 

[DunedinDragon]

4 hours ago, ChaserHUN said:

Interesting, the Yamaha has a 52-20000Hz frequency response, the QSC subwoofer 38-121Hz.

Got an e-mail from Tech 21 and they said the Power Engine Deuce Deluxe has a 20-20000Hz frequency response.

Frequency response is really not relevant, its about how you allocate the response of those frequencies that matter.  If a speaker produces 1db of response at 20 hz, it can be claimed to have a frequency response that low, even though it's not really a functional or useful response.  What matters is the frequency response curve.  That's what you want to know.  How evenly does it respond at different frequencies?  THAT is what really matters.

 

[ChaserHUN]

9 minutes ago, DunedinDragon said:

Frequency response is really not relevant, its about how you allocate the response of those frequencies that matter.  If a speaker produces 1db of response at 20 hz, it can be claimed to have a frequency response that low, even though it's not really a functional or useful response.  What matters is the frequency response curve.  That's what you want to know.  How evenly does it respond at different frequencies?  THAT is what really matters.

 

Yeah. But wouldn't I be losing low end? I mean the low B on a string is abouth 31Hz. So a 5 string bass wouldn't sound as good as it should or with my XL410 cab wich has a frequency response of 30Hz-5KHz.

 

[rd2rk]

6 hours ago, ChaserHUN said:

I know it is a great rig. But what is the point having it if a lot of scenarios I can't use my own rig and the other the cab is never miced up?

Also what is the point of a Helix and having custom IRs if I run it through a standard bass cab?

Really I would just need the HR or the PEDD for rehearsal or an extra stage monitoring. We don't play loud even though we play metal. No need for insane loudness, we want to preserve our hearing. 

There great reviews on it on sweetwater, and maybe 2 people said it sounded better than the headrush or the friedman frfr and was loud enough. 

Also the Kemper Cab is "only" 200W and many people said it is loud as hell. 

 

Now that we know that being tired of hauling it around is not the whole story, I stand by the rest of what I said, and what DD said.

Great reviews on Sweetwater should be compared to the few and lackluster reviews on the two biggest forums for bass players.

Also FWIW - no Helix Bass amp OR Cab OR IR has ever given me an "OH YEAH!" moment. If I go out to a jam knowing I'll only be playing bass, I bring my ancient BOSS ME-50b and my FRFR112. It sounds better for bass than anything I've ever gotten out of my Helix!

 

Bottom line - buy 'em and try 'em, just make sure you can return 'em!

[ChaserHUN]

7 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

Now that we know that being tired of hauling it around is not the whole story, I stand by the rest of what I said, and what DD said.

Great reviews on Sweetwater should be compared to the few and lackluster reviews on the two biggest forums for bass players.

Also FWIW - no Helix Bass amp OR Cab OR IR has ever given me an "OH YEAH!" moment. If I go out to a jam knowing I'll only be playing bass, I bring my ancient BOSS ME-50b and my FRFR112. It sounds better for bass than anything I've ever gotten out of my Helix!

 

Bottom line - buy 'em and try 'em, just make sure you can return 'em!

I don't know. I heard pretty amazing bass tone from the Helix. Also I do play guitar too so it would come in handy on that part too.

[DunedinDragon]

13 hours ago, ChaserHUN said:

Yeah. But wouldn't I be losing low end? I mean the low B on a string is abouth 31Hz. So a 5 string bass wouldn't sound as good as it should or with my XL410 cab wich has a frequency response of 30Hz-5KHz.

 

And where on the frequency response curve is 31hz for that speaker??   If it measures very low in db's at 31hz (as the VAST majority of any and all speakers do), then what's the point?  You can throw around specifications all day if it makes you feel better, but whether it's likely to SOUND better isn't measured with that kind of myopic and meaningless spec and that's my point.  Go take a look at the Celestion web site and examine ALL their speakers and look specifically at the speaker response curves which they publish for ALL their models and examine the level of response you get at those low levels.  But ultimately it all comes down to what will the audience hear and what will make them not only hear but feel the bass?  That's all part of what a dedicated subwoofer does which is to specifically boost those very low end frequencies which need to be felt more than heard.  As I mentioned we use a QSC KS112 subwoofer which gives everyone in the room (including stage and audience because subs are omni-directional unlike your cabinet or speaker) a more than adequate low end bass feel for ALL instruments that need the low frequency boost including the bass, the low end of the keyboard, the kick drum and lower toms even though that subwoofer is spec'd at 38Hz as it's lowest response, yet at a volume level setting of 3 all low bass frequencies can not only be heard but felt in a room with a capacity of 150 people.  Have more people than that...get the next bigger sub or get multiple subs.  Take a look at the forest....NOT the trees.

[rd2rk]

8 hours ago, ChaserHUN said:

I don't know. I heard pretty amazing bass tone from the Helix. Also I do play guitar too so it would come in handy on that part too.

 

One man's AMAZING! is another man's MEH. For me, Helix is AMAZING for guitar, MEH for bass. I will admit that I haven't spent a lot of time "dialing it in" for bass, and since, for most of my life, I've gone bass>amp, and use very little of the ME-50b's FX - compressor, a touch of reverb, a smidge of SansAmp style dirt, VERY occasional chorus - the vast assortment of bass amps and FX in Helix don't justify the time required to get what the BOSS gives me in 10 seconds.

 

Not trying to disparage you from buying a Helix, I've had mine for 5 years and love it. If I'm playing guitar AND bass at a jam I just bring the Helix and FRFR112 and it's fine. Just saying that for bass, to me, it's underwhelming and way more than I need. YMMV.