HX Stomp USB levels low

[ruperthawkes]

Hi,

 

connected my HX stomp to the Mac (both running latest versions) and with a simple patch on the stomp, reverb and chorus the level in Logic is very low (about -24 dB).   Its solo guitar and normally via other gear it's more like -6.   The output on the stomp is at 0db.   If I ramp it to +14dB its a decent level.   However I also run the outputs to two ZT amps and then those are massively distorted.

 

It would be nice if the USB output level could be set independently of the main outputs.   

 

On the Helix Rack I recall I think the digital out level could be set differently to the main outs.

 

Should it be this low via USB?

 

Thank you!

[SaschaFranck]

Just raise the volume as you did and lower the output running to your amps using the big volume knob.

If you want more flexibility, create a split path and dedicate one output to USB, the other to the 1/4 (or XLR) outs. You will (unfortunately and IMO without any technical reason) lose a block that way, though, as a split path requires at least one block to be present (you can use a simple gain block and even bypass it, though).

[ruperthawkes]

there isn't a block to route to USB

[SaschaFranck]

53 minutes ago, ruperthawkes said:

there isn't a block to route to USB

 

When you split a path, and drag the mixer block down, a second output block will be created. You can assign all output options to that block. That block also allows for setting the output level separately. Have a look:

[SaschaFranck]

To illustrate:

[ruperthawkes]

I've dragged down and got the two paths BUT can only select MAIN L/R on the top one and SEND L/R on the bottom one.   How can I change them?   Nothing to select to change!   This is the HX STOMP!

[ruperthawkes]

[SaschaFranck]

Hm - I know it's a Stomp. But I thought that this would be possible on it as well. How many USB outs does it show up with in your DAW?

[soundog]

"It would be nice if the USB output level could be set independently of the main outputs."

 

+1

[ruperthawkes]

11 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

Hm - I know it's a Stomp. But I thought that this would be possible on it as well. How many USB outs does it show up with in your DAW?

 

In Logic there are 8 inputs shown.   But yeah would be a nice firmware update to have USB as an output block option.   Line6?

[SaschaFranck]

1 hour ago, ruperthawkes said:

In Logic there are 8 inputs shown.

 

So, that's just the same as with the Floor. Making me wonder why you don't have access to the USB levels on the output blocks. I've always been thinking of the Stomp as a "1-pathed,. block-reduced" version of the Floor (obviously with less hardware bells and whistles, too) with an otherwise identical featureset, at least as long as the available features go. But apparently that's not the case, unless someone else knows how to access the USB send levels in a different way.
Anyway, as long as it's like that, you could still try my first suggestion, simply raise the patch volume and lower the level running into your monitors with the output volume knob.

[datacommando]

3 hours ago, ruperthawkes said:

 

In Logic there are 8 inputs shown.   But yeah would be a nice firmware update to have USB as an output block option.   Line6?

Hi,

 

HX Stomp has 8 USB channels that you can use for audio in and out. In Logic they function like this - Channels 1&2 are used for the fully processed audio from path A, channels 3&4 are for the fully processed audio from whatever is running on path B, 5&6 are the main L/R dry signal for DI and re-amping. See the manual, page 55, for a full run down of all USB in and out.

 

When recording in Logic, and the signal seems to be low, you can insert a Gain plug-in on the input of the channel which should give you up to +18db gain. Avoid making the input too “hot”.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

[SaschaFranck]

23 minutes ago, datacommando said:

When recording in Logic, and the signal seems to be low, you can insert a Gain plug-in on the input of the channel which should give you up to +18db gain.

 

But that doesn't actually give you a higher recording level, so for me that'd just be a sort of "intermediate" solution.

 

Fwiw, I can perfectly understand the desire for higher USB levels. In all my patches, I prefer to treat the levels rather conservatively, so nothing ever gets too hot. As a result, with the USB outs set at 0dB, the level arriving in Logic is pretty low.
Now, given a 24bit recording environment, sonically that doesn't matter too much, but from my experience, most dynamic plugins work a little better (at least at their defaults) with a recorded level not too low. Yeah, I know, I can always insert a gain plugin - but why would I have to?
In addition, with a too low level, the waveform display isn't great to look at, so you need to zoom in a lot. Again, I know there's the waveform display slider, allowing you to visually raise the display, but unfortunately, that slider is working globally, so all waveforms will be enlarged.
As a result of all that, once I use any of my patches for recording duties, I usually create a split path (as long as the patch allows for it, but all of my "non-live" patches do) and adjust the USB out level properly. Well, in fact, with all my home/recording-only patches, it's one of the very first things I do, my recording-template has it all set up accordingly already.

Oh, btw, not that I would exactly recommend it, but you can as well create an input object in Logic and insert a gain plugin there. That way, the additional gain will actually be recorded. The downside being that you might forget to switch that off in case you don't need it anymore. I guess the Logic programmers have been aware of that, so the functionality is sort of hidden in the "MIDI-Environment" (which actually is an audio-environment as well - has been your only available audio mixer back in the days).

[SaschaFranck]

Just in case anyone's interested, here's a Logic project demonstrating the use of an input object. You can really only change its attributes in the environment (it's on screenset #2), so if you wanted another input to feed it, you'd have to go there to change it's properties. Heck, you can't even create audio objects there anymore, so you have to copy an existing one and change its properties.
Anyway, have a look:


And here's the Logic project:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19KomDvk1J5jXS_osERLyWjGtYRL-19-_/view?usp=sharing

 

When you run your Helix into that project, you can check things out already. Record enable the track labeled "HX" and fool around with the gain plugin. You'll notice that the record level for the HX track will change.
Note: You can as well delete the input track from the track list in the main window, unlike "normal" tracks, it won't be automatically deleted and still be present in your mixer.
Fwiw, technically, this isn't all that much different from raising the USB level inside the Helix, but it's extra steps and - as you can see - that procedure isn't exactly fully supported by Logic anymore, it's merely a leftover for backwards compatibility.

 

[SaschaFranck]

I have no idea why the first sentences of the last paragraph are still working as a link to Google Drive, tried to edit that out with no success...

[datacommando]

4 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

Fwiw, I can perfectly understand the desire for higher USB levels. In all my patches, I prefer to treat the levels rather conservatively, so nothing ever gets too hot. As a result, with the USB outs set at 0dB, the level arriving in Logic is pretty low.

 

Yeah, I can also understand the benefit having higher USB level, but I'm not sure if the OP was commenting about the processed audio from the HX Stomp or the dry signal unprocessed signal. My processed signal into Logic is aways at reasonably useable level, and although the DI signal is pretty low in comparison, it is still usable, especially when given a little lift from the utility gain plug-in or gain added in the region inspector. 

 

I'm intrigued to read your comment - "As a result, with the USB outs set at 0dB, the level arriving in Logic is pretty low."

 

Surely, the point is that it is not possible to set the output level on the USB from Helix? Digital out by default is set at 0.0db and can be set to +18db, but that only works with SPDIF or AES/EBU out.

[SaschaFranck]

1 hour ago, datacommando said:

Surely, the point is that it is not possible to set the output level on the USB from Helix?

 

It is possible on the Floor. Have a look:
Hmpf -- no, don't have a look just yet, can't seem to be able to post a pic ATM.

Ok, good old IMGUR then:

[SaschaFranck]

Fwiw, if you leave any path blank, you can (obviously) as well boost your DI signal.

[datacommando]

21 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said:

 

It is possible on the Floor. Have a look:
 

 

Ah, ha, yes it does do that.

 

The reason I never looked at that option is because I usually have the output set on the default "Multi" because not only does it carry USB 1&2 into Logic, but also my monitors on the XLR out at the same time and thus avoiding the dreaded latency.

[SaschaFranck]

1 hour ago, datacommando said:

The reason I never looked at that option is because I usually have the output set on the default "Multi"

 

Ok, fwiw, I meant to post this as a tip in whatever dedicated thread anyway, but here's my usual recording setup:
 

I'm usually splitting path 2 (path 1 featuring the usual suspects, such as drives and modulations I want to run pre-amp, sometimes the amp as well). Split A is then running into USB Out 1/2, without anything else. Split B is running into a cab (or IR block) and into some delay/verb stuff. That path goes to the 1/4 outs.

This gives me:
- A recording out with everything required for the "basic sound" minus the cab portion. I like to add some IRs after the fact, it's a great mixing option - and in case you're a Logic user like me, selecting them as Space Designer presets couldn't be any easier once all IRs are converted (which takes a few seconds using Space Designer Manager), so there's pretty much no IR listening fatique as everything works as quickly as adjusting an EQ.

- An option to add some FX just for monitoring pleasure without having to tinker around within Logic, setting up some FX only monitoring scenario (which I do as well, but simply switching a delay on with your foot is still a lot faster).

- Individual levels for both the recorded and my monitored signal.

So, why am I doing it that way instead of just using HX Native and recording the DI guitar signal?
- On my aging Mac Pro, HXN is acting quite slow-ish (performs great with plenty of CPU headroom even on more complexed patches, but loading time is pretty bad). But that's not even the most relevant thing...

- This way, I'm "half commiting" myself to a sound. "Half" because I can still change the cab on the recording, but the basic sound is all done. I like this a lot better than dealing with DI tracks, simply because all that reamping biz is the ugliest rabbit hole ever (at least for me).

 

I absolutely dig this way of recording.

 

Here's an example patch (I flipped the IR block in favour of an HX cab, so this patch is meant to sound a bit different, didn't spend much time on cab selection).
Hm, seems I have crossed a limit in terms of attachement bandwidth or so... ok, then Google Drive, here we come:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PQpXWHByKm9J0pZcjThiMZTATPTBrQZx/view?usp=sharing

[datacommando]

2 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

So, why am I doing it that way instead of just using HX Native and recording the DI guitar signal?

That’s the reason I use the setup that I do - I have Helix Native.

 

You have an interesting approach, although as you say - “This way, I'm "half commiting" myself to a sound”.

 

As we all know, there are no rules, it’s whatever works for you.

 

EDIT:

You can clean out some space for uploading images, sound etc., by clicking on your avatar in the top righ of the page and from the drop down menu select “My Attachments”. Then you can delete any older items that may not be needed.

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by datacommando
Edit

[SaschaFranck]

28 minutes ago, datacommando said:

That’s the reason I use the setup that I do - I have Helix Native.

 

Well, so do I. But as said, apart from it opening quite slowly, I really found myself tweaking too much - usually without a noticeably better outcome (fwiw, whenever I record something I consider more or less serious, I *do* record a DI track in addition, just in case...).

 

30 minutes ago, datacommando said:

although as you say - “This way, I'm "half commiting" myself to a sound”.

 

Maybe it's also got to do with being familiar. I mean, when I started recording, there were no plugins (heck, there weren't even computers to record audio with - which might tell something about my age...), so you were forces to commit yourself to a sound. It's not that I'm not excited about plugins, more to the opposite, I also quite dig Helix Native (the idea in itself is just excellent), but still, I think I'm getting things done faster my way. It's also not just about commiting myself, having no real total recall (sure, I could save the HX patches along with a song, but I don't) forces me to finish entire takes as there's no going back (at least not really). Heck, I'm even thinking of going back to the Amplifirebox for home recording duties. Not only that I find some of the Atomic models to be quite excellent (in fact, IMO at least 2-3 of them blow the HX equivalents away in terms of dynamics), I just happen to love the WYSIWYG factor of that thing along with some pedals (of which I still have a decent collection). Dial in, record, be done - no options to look back. Forces me to stay focused (which I need).

 

42 minutes ago, datacommando said:

You can clean out some space for uploading images, sound etc., by clicking on your avatar in the top righ of the page and from the drop down menu select “My Attachments”. Then you can delete any older items that may not be needed.

 

Thanks. Interesting, I never thought there would be an overall filesize limit.

[datacommando]

1 hour ago, SaschaFranck said:

heck, there weren't even computers to record audio with - which might tell something about my age...

You’re not alone.
 

There are quite a lot of us greybeards in here who started out with 3 speed, 2 track reel to reel machines way back at the dawn of time when the world was black and white. Then George Martin hooked up 2 four track units to record Sergeant Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band, at the end of “the Summer of Love” and we went technicolour - psychedelia hit us! I started as a student in Art College in the September of that year, and six months later the students of the Sorbonne in Paris started to riot and my college had it’s own gentle revolution!
 

It’s been fun, so far.

[silverhead]

23 minutes ago, datacommando said:

……

There are quite a lot of us greybeards in here who started out with 3 speed, 2 track reel to reel machines ……

You had 3 speeds and reel-to-reel? How spoiled you were! I started with a simple stereo cassette recorder - 2-tracks, technically, but you couldn’t use them independently. Connect your 2 mics to the 2 inputs, separate them by a few feet, and hit the Record button. Whatever sound was floating around the room got recorded, and that was it. You had to know when the train was scheduled to run past your house, and you hoped the telephone wouldn’t ring.

[datacommando]

10 hours ago, silverhead said:

You had to know when the train was scheduled to run past your house, and you hoped the telephone wouldn’t ring.

LOL!
 

How did you know?

 

I actually did live quite near a rail track back then!

 

Oh, yeah… cassettes were a much later item and I still have a big box of old double speed 4 track chrome cassette tapes lurking around here someplace. 

[SaschaFranck]

17 minutes ago, datacommando said:

How did you know?

 

Make no friends and the telephone never rings. If you want some expert tips, ask me.

 

17 minutes ago, datacommando said:

I actually did live quite near a rail track back then!

 

We once had a rehearsal room that was literally *under* a rail track. But the train noise itself wasn't even the most horrible offender. Try to switch on *any* overdrive in such a location (ideally using single coils) and the S/N ratio easily goes to 1/50. Needless to say, in those very rehearsal rooms, only jazz bands were practising (seriously).

[SaschaFranck]

And fwiw, I started multitracking with tape-to-tape recordings. Two way less than mediocre ghettoblaster ancestors and their onboard mics had to do the job. This is the very model I was using (and yes, I even bought a second one dedicated for my multitracking endeavours):

But hey, it says "super" - so what could go wrong?

Btw, I kept using that thing long after because for whatever reason it was doing an excellent job on rehearsal room recordings, the onboard compressor apparently has been a lot more musician-friendly than what you find on most mobile phones today.

[datacommando]

O.K. - This has drifted way too far of topic.

 

I guess we can agree that we would like a little more control over the level being output over USB into a DAW.

 

Possibly one for Ideascale.

[SaschaFranck]

8 minutes ago, datacommando said:

I guess we can agree that we would like a little more control over the level being output over USB into a DAW.

 

I think it'd be quite handy to have independent control over the USB levels even without having to create a split path. OTOH, this might confuse some people, as one might simply forget that you were fooling around with the USB levels (one could as well have them changed accidentally) , wondering why there's so little volume arriving at your DAW from an otherwise pretty hot leveled patch. Personally, I would like it, though.

[datacommando]

2 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

wondering why there's so little volume arriving at your DAW from an otherwise pretty hot leveled patch.

 

As I mentioned previously, the processed audio on USB 1&2 in Logic is generally quite useable.

 

I think that several people have mentioned that the signal for the DI signal on USB 7&8 seems to be be very low. If there was a way to strengthen the dry signal, then that would be a great modification to the USB.

[lou-kash]

Seriously, I don't see the problem here:

• HX Stomp provides 24-bit/96 kHz audio.
• In a DAW, you should be definitely recording at least 24-bit/44.1 kHz.
• At 24-bit, the low volume signal doesn't affect the sound quality whatsoever. As opposed to 16-bit recording where you might run into some sonic artifacts issues under extreme conditions.
• If the DAW input is too low compared to other tracks, add a Gain plugin at the beginning of your DAW track FX chain.
  In all my Logic Pro templates, I always have the Gain plugin at the top of every track.

[SaschaFranck]

12 minutes ago, lou-kash said:

Seriously, I don't see the problem here: [snip...]

 

I would absolutely agree on all points, just that I personally prefer to see a "healthy" waveform to start with.

[lou-kash]

3 minutes ago, SaschaFranck said:

to see a "healthy" waveform

 

1. record
2. normalize the recorded waveform to make it look "healthy"… :D

[SaschaFranck]

7 minutes ago, lou-kash said:

normalize the recorded waveform to make it look "healthy"… :D

 

I'm perfectly aware of all these options, but I rather don't do that as long as I'm not done tracking.

[soundog]

@SaschaFranck is making valid points. If I record via HX Stomp USB, the Stomp is acting as an audio interface. I should be able to set ouput levels to my needs, not some preconceived idea of what is best. Case in point, when I use my Apollo interface (or any other audio interface), I can set my audio input so I'm peaking between -6db to -3dB in my Logic channel. I wish I could do the same with the Stomp.

 

Partly because of the anemic USB levels (and almost invisible waveforms), I now route audio out of my Stomp into my Apollo for recording so I can set the levels where I like them, and where subsequent plug-ins in the chain like them.

[lou-kash]

7 hours ago, soundog said:

I can set my audio input so I'm peaking between -6db to -3dB in my Logic channel.

 

Alright folks, so I connected the Stomp to Logic and plugged in my Ibanez SR1200 bass in passive mode.

• When slapping really, really hard, the dry input (USB5&6) peaks at -4.0 dBFS.
• I can crank up the signal directly on the bass in active mode so that it peaks at -2.0 dBFS in Logic

Perfect.

 

I still don't see the problem here. This is essentially and literally a "plug'n'play" device: plug it in, select the input channels in DAW, play away, and using the approximately default setting you don't have to worry about a too hot input level whatsoever because you can always make the recording/monitoring louder by other means.

 

On the Stomp, I can still boost the Output block(s) by up to 20 dB – which affects USB as well – making the Logic wet inputs clip. Not sure why I would want that though…

Edited November 5, 2021 by lou-kash

[datacommando]

13 hours ago, lou-kash said:

normalize the recorded waveform to make it look "healthy"… :D

That’s exactly what I have been doing because the dry signal waveform is almost invisible. I am quite happy with my processed audio level on USB 1&2.

 

There does seem to be some inconsistency of user experience, particularly with the dry signal. Some find it way too low, others far too hot and, as you state, just right.
 

It appears to be something of a “Goldilocks” feature for us all.

 

Signal too low. (See posts #4 and #14 from Digital Igloo).

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/helix-usb-input-volume.1629009/

 

Signal too hot.

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by datacommando
Typo

[SaschaFranck]

39 minutes ago, datacommando said:

There does seem to be some inconsistency of user experience, particularly with the dry signal. Some find it way too low, others far too hot and, as you state, just right.

 

Well:

- Hot pickups vs. weaker ones. And anything inbetween.

- Input Pad on vs. off.

- Hard  picking vs. soft picking.

- Stock 1MOhm impedance vs. lower values.

 

It'd probably be a nice idea to have some sort of extra leveling window (or a small sidebar kinda thing opening in HX Edit), allowing you to access all interface-related outputs quickly.

I mean, I adjust input levels with my "normal" interface all the time - no, not just as often anymore as back in the 16bit days, but still regularly. Route source to inputs, play the loudest thing, adjust input trim. Gives me healthy levels all the time.

No, it's not that you couldn't find a way to get decent levels with the Helix, but it's still a lot easier with other interfaces. Using those, I never need to think about adding a gain plugin or normalizing anything. Simply because my levels are right to start with - which, at least IMO, is what things should be like.

The plain fact that these threads seem to regularly pop up should be more than enough proof for there to be room for improvements.