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Changing to the Helix family... which one to get?


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So... I finally decided to get one of the units from the Helix range. I tried the Native plug-in and it really sounds great. The fuzz and muffs are better than what I could expect from a modeling unit - bear in mind that my current unit is an old G-System which sound good but after trying the Native... oh my god! The delays and chorus sound amazing!

 

My doubts: should I go for the HX Effects or Stomp XL? I mainly play thru real amps (AC 30 in one project, Marshall DSL20HR on the other), Playing live I won't need the amp + cab modelling, BUT they do sound great on the Native and its nice to have the "option".

 

The HX haves amp switching thru cable (great for the Marshall!) but the Stomp does haves the amp + cab. The XL is more or less 100 EUR more than the HX...

 

Ah - the LT is not on the list because I want something lighter (and cheaper!). The G-System is around 7 KG and the LT is around 6 KG. If I'm going to change at least save my back

 

If you could share your thoughts and personal experience it would be great! :)

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I play both bass and guitar...a lot more bass these days in terms of studio and playing out...I used the HD Desktop for nearly 10 years and got a pod GO during the pandemic and did 2-3 shows on it and a bunch of song writing...I have been using Native for a while and started using some source audio stuff (more for bass specifically) and needed midi....I love the GO layout, but it does fall short a bit on how the blocks are locked down....So it was past time for me to make the move to HX...The XL is basically the exact same form factor as the GO minus the expression pedal. I have been using Line 6 for a long time and I am very happy with the XL...I can get whatever I need out of it...There are a few things it does not do well for me....synths...they are ok for some padded stuff, but the latency is too much and not enough diversity there for me....eq...the eqs are ok. I have an EQ2 first in the chain that calibrates my instruments before the hit whatever I am using....It's a dual 10 band parametric...I use one for the instrument and the other to sculpt the signal for the C4 synth I use. The last bit is the Ultrawave Bass pedal....nothing like that in HX....

 

I am using the XL as my midi controller also....XL midi out to the Neural Hub and I can do whatever I need to control those 3 pedals. If you had an older amplifier with CV footswitches, you might need to add a midi controlled relay box....lots of options on that.

 

I had an HXFX for a little while. I would take the XL over it just because I like the form factor of the XL better than the HXFX...It's a great unit, just a little too big for what I need from it.

 

Not sure if that helps you or not....I have played the full helix and lt many times and I know the capability....an LT or Full Helix would work better for me from a dsp perspective, but like you I don't want a modeler that size because of the other bits I need. best of luck to you with your decision.

 

 

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I recently got the Line 6 Pod Go.   If you play through physical amps, this is the unit I'd get.  You can have it in the pedalboard mode with 6 buttons, or 4 snapshots.  Nearly all Helix sounds are there.  Since you will be mic'ing your amp, no XLRs are needed to go to the FOH, this is perfect IMO.  If Pod Go existed when I was making the switch from analog gear, I'd most likely have gotten it and built all my presets on it for my shows.   Too late now...

 

I purchased it as a backup for my Helix to take to shows, and it's self-contained and sounds great.  I also love how light and compact it is.  You can put it into your gig bag....

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37 minutes ago, theElevators said:

I recently got the Line 6 Pod Go.   If you play through physical amps, this is the unit I'd get.  ….


If you are playing through physical amps, you are probably not using the amp and mic/cab modelling in the Pod Go. You might be better off with the HX FX which is designed to be used with physical amps.

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I've owned both a Stomp (not XL) and an HX FX. In my opinion, the Stomp has enough blocks to do whatever you need for effects, and then you have the extra benefit of the amps/cabs (which would still be useful if you own real amps). I also like the smaller size. I sold the FX, kept the Stomp!

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How many effects will you want access to at any given time? If more than 3 (assuming HX Stomp) are you ok with adding extra buttons or midi controller? 
 

In a live setting will you always have a backup tube amp? (A stomp could cover your backup in a pinch and give you access to effects)

 

I have an LT, my first attempt at modeling, and I’m finally feeling dialed in (had some leveling issues early on while learning the world of modeling). It’s a great unit for sure but, I recently found a decent deal on a used Stomp and I added a midi controller to act as effect on/off and run the unit in preset view. This may ultimately become my main rig but I really don’t use a lot of effects, at one time, or create really complicated signal paths. 
 

Hopefully that’s helpful. I’m typing this sorta stream of though as I’m walking out the door… 

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Forgive me, but taking the LT out of contention because you want to "save your back" seems a little silly to me. It's not that heavy. Your back will be fine. And it covers everything you'll ever need from a multi-fx (some, like me, have reported issues with channel switching on some amps, but as @spaceatlmentioned, there are MIDI-controlled external switchers that are quite affordable). I bought the LT so I wouldn't be constantly trying to squeeze things out of a unit with limited processing power, and now I'm trying to squeeze things out of the LT. You'll be surprised how quickly you hit that wall when you discover how versatile the Helix line is in terms of control, because with the ability to assign multiple blocks to footswitches, and also the Snapshot function, you can do so much with fewer presets. The only downside is that you need the processing power to have all those blocks in your presets waiting to be engaged, which is why I would encourage you to reconsider the LT. 

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20 hours ago, zappazapper said:

Forgive me, but taking the LT out of contention because you want to "save your back" seems a little silly to me. It's not that heavy. Your back will be fine. And it covers everything you'll ever need from a multi-fx (some, like me, have reported issues with channel switching on some amps, but as @spaceatlmentioned, there are MIDI-controlled external switchers that are quite affordable). I bought the LT so I wouldn't be constantly trying to squeeze things out of a unit with limited processing power, and now I'm trying to squeeze things out of the LT. You'll be surprised how quickly you hit that wall when you discover how versatile the Helix line is in terms of control, because with the ability to assign multiple blocks to footswitches, and also the Snapshot function, you can do so much with fewer presets. The only downside is that you need the processing power to have all those blocks in your presets waiting to be engaged, which is why I would encourage you to reconsider the LT. 

 

The G-System is 17.2 lb. (7.83 kg) and the LT is 12.5 lbs. (5.67 kg). I do think the G-System is HEAVY! Of course I have it in my pedalboard (a Pedaltrain Classic) along with:

 

  • Guitar Switcher
  • Mooer Wahter
  • Treble Booster
  • ISP G-String Decimator
  • AMT V-1 (amp emulator when I need to go straight to mixer - on rehearsals for example)

 

How's the noise gate on the Helix? The ISP is amazing, no tone suck whatsoever... if the noise gate is good I can take off the ISP. The AMT V-1 as well (if I buy the LT). The Whater is great because it works with 4 Pressure sensors (as soon as I put my foot in it automatically activates!) but I use it only on a couple of songs - if the Helix Wah is good I can live without the pressure sensors :)

 

All together (if the above is true!) I will only need to keep the Treble Booster + Guitar Switcher... Thoughts?

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Guitar switcher - you might not be able to keep this, as the input on the Helix has a variable impedance feature that needs to be connected directly to the guitar to work. I think if it's a "true bypass" pedal, as opposed to a buffered pedal, you might be OK. What's the make and model? I'm sure someone on here that knows more about that stuff can chime in and give more knowledgeable advice. 

 

Wah - the Helix doesn't have pressure sensors in the expression pedal but it does have a feature that allows a block to be turned on and off depending on the position of the expression pedal. I don't use this feature, so again, maybe someone can chime in about that but it seems to me that you can get the Helix to work in a similar way to your wah. Not to mention that again, you probably don't want to put that between the input of the Helix and your guitar because of the variable impedance feature, as it seems to me that it would be very unlikely that a wah with such a switching mechanism would be true-bypass.

 

Treble booster - again, what's the make and model, and does it have to be THAT treble booster? Because the Helix comes with a model of a Dallas Rangemaster and a host of other overdrive and distortion models that I'm sure can work well enough to get your treble booster off your board.

 

Noise gate - the Helix has a basic noise gate integrated into the input block, plus three different noise gate models in the dynamics block. The only thing it doesn't have at this moment is a gate with a loop (basically it keys off your input signal but cuts the signal AFTER the distortion and amp), and your gate is not one of those so I think you can use the Helix gates. 

 

AMT V-1 - Yes, the Helix is going to be a much better option for amp modeling than this pedal.

 

It seems to me that you can get everything off your board and just use the LT. Much lighter XD

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23 minutes ago, zappazapper said:

Guitar switcher - you might not be able to keep this, as the input on the Helix has a variable impedance feature that needs to be connected directly to the guitar to work. I think if it's a "true bypass" pedal, as opposed to a buffered pedal, you might be OK. What's the make and model? I'm sure someone on here that knows more about that stuff can chime in and give more knowledgeable advice. 

 

It's a custom made unit for a boutique pedal maker - true bypass. Now what you wrote kind of worries me. With the G-System I connect the following way:

 

  • Guitar -> Switcher -> TB -> Noise Gate -> Amp Input
  • G-System Input -> Amp FX Loop Send
  • G-System Output -> Amp FX Loop Return

With the Helix is not doable? The TB is strange beast, as it needs direct interaction from the Guitar and Amp to sound good. On the G the guitar input is buffered so I cannot use a TB in it, so I connect as the above. If I connect the TB to the G-System input it sounds week and trebly...

 

23 minutes ago, zappazapper said:

Wah - the Helix doesn't have pressure sensors in the expression pedal but it does have a feature that allows a block to be turned on and off depending on the position of the expression pedal. I don't use this feature, so again, maybe someone can chime in about that but it seems to me that you can get the Helix to work in a similar way to your wah. Not to mention that again, you probably don't want to put that between the input of the Helix and your guitar because of the variable impedance feature, as it seems to me that it would be very unlikely that a wah with such a switching mechanism would be true-bypass.

 

As I said - not very important for me as I use it on a couple of songs. IT IS a nice feature but not a deal breaker for me :)

 

28 minutes ago, zappazapper said:

Treble booster - again, what's the make and model, and does it have to be THAT treble booster? Because the Helix comes with a model of a Dallas Rangemaster and a host of other overdrive and distortion models that I'm sure can work well enough to get your treble booster off your board.

 

A Greg Fryer Treble Booster Deluxe - kind of a custom Rangemaster of sorts. I like the way the TB reacts to the volume knob on the guitar, as it cleans amazingly.

 

30 minutes ago, zappazapper said:

Noise gate - the Helix has a basic noise gate integrated into the input block, plus three different noise gate models in the dynamics block. The only thing it doesn't have at this moment is a gate with a loop (basically it keys off your input signal but cuts the signal AFTER the distortion and amp), and your gate is not one of those so I think you can use the Helix gates.

 

Great.

 

31 minutes ago, zappazapper said:

AMT V-1 - Yes, the Helix is going to be a much better option for amp modeling than this pedal.

 

Yes I think so also.

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COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC:To spaceatl.  My mouse hovered over your avatar and I noticed it said you joined this forum on Dec 31, 1969. That's amazing! I didn't know Line 6 had been around that long!!! How did you do it? (just joking of course, But I had to make some comment.)

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6 minutes ago, stratgilmour said:

 

  • Guitar -> Switcher -> TB -> Noise Gate -> Amp Input
  • G-System Input -> Amp FX Loop Send
  • G-System Output -> Amp FX Loop Return

 

That's the way some people interfaced their amps with their multi-fx units before multi-fx units came with FX loops of their own. With an FX Loop on a multi-fx you can do what's called the 4-cable method (4CM).

 

Guitar > multi-fx input

Multi-fx FX send > Amp input

Amp FX send > multi-fx return

Multi-fx Output > Amp FX Return

 

Essentially it puts the preamp of your amp into the FX Loop of your multi-fx, which on a unit like the Helix is programmable, which means you can choose to use it or not just like any block (so if you choose to use an amp model, your signal is not going through the amp model AND the preamp of your amp, which would change the sound of the model) and you can place it anywhere in the signal chain, so you can put some effects before it and some after, just like if you were using some pedals in front of the amp and some in the FX Loop of the amp. It's a much more flexible way to use a multi-fx with an amp, but there are some downsides. Mainly that every device has its own input impedance which will load the pickups of a guitar and change the sound. As a multi-fx is inherently a buffered device, it blocks the input impedance of an amp from loading a guitar's pickups the same way, so when 4CM first became a thing, it was a little disappointing because it rarely sounded the same as plugging directly to the amp. The solution on the Helix is the variable input impedance feature - you can set the Helix to have its own input impedance so that it loads the pickups of your guitar in a way that's more similar to your amp, so it will sound closer to what your amp sounds like connected directly.

 

Now, the way you've been connected to your amp would already block the impedance of your amp from loading the guitar, even if you weren't using pedals, and since you've been using it happily it doesn't seem to be an issue for you. But pedals also have their own input impedance, and when you describe that your treble booster "needs direct information" from the guitar and amp, what is more likely to be happening is that it has an input impedance that loads the pickups on your guitar in a particular way that makes it work the way it does. If you put that pedal into the other FX Loop of the Helix, you might be able to find an input impedance setting that would make it sound similar to connecting directly to it. Moreover, there is an "Auto" setting on the input impedance feature which changes the input impedance depending on the first active block in your chain, so the Rangemaster model would come with its own impedance setting to make it work best, and since input impedance as it relates to your amp doesn't seem to be an issue, just leaving it at the auto setting might be the best strategy for you. 

 

What i would advise is to find somewhere where you can rent an LT and see if you can make it work without your pedals (your guitar switcher is probably fine to use if it's true-bypass). Every pedal you're using has a counterpart on the Helix, and many people have gone in thinking that they need to keep some of their pedals and found that the Helix does everything just as well or better. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, brue58ski said:

COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC:To spaceatl.  My mouse hovered over your avatar and I noticed it said you joined this forum on Dec 31, 1969. That's amazing! I didn't know Line 6 had been around that long!!! How did you do it? (just joking of course, But I had to make some comment.)

lol! Some Line 6 Humor I guess....I never noticed that before...I have been here too long....

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On 11/7/2021 at 8:47 AM, zappazapper said:

Forgive me, but taking the LT out of contention because you want to "save your back" seems a little silly to me. It's not that heavy. Your back will be fine. And it covers everything you'll ever need from a multi-fx (some, like me, have reported issues with channel switching on some amps, but as @spaceatlmentioned, there are MIDI-controlled external switchers that are quite affordable). I bought the LT so I wouldn't be constantly trying to squeeze things out of a unit with limited processing power, and now I'm trying to squeeze things out of the LT. You'll be surprised how quickly you hit that wall when you discover how versatile the Helix line is in terms of control, because with the ability to assign multiple blocks to footswitches, and also the Snapshot function, you can do so much with fewer presets. The only downside is that you need the processing power to have all those blocks in your presets waiting to be engaged, which is why I would encourage you to reconsider the LT. 

 

Just to be 100% clear, I am using a stomp XL as a midi controller to control the Source Audio neural hub. A stomp and separate MC would have been too much real estate for me. 

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Thank you for the great insight @zappazapper

 

The switcher is really needed as, during a gig, I might need to reach for the backup guitar and activate immediately without the need of exchanging cables etc.

 

As for the LT: it does seem a great piece of kit but, from what I read, its even bigger than the G-System. One of the reasons to change is the dimensions/weight of the pedalboard. Ok weight would be better but dimensions - again a large pedalboard is needed. That's why I was inclined to the HX Stomp XL (for having amp + cabs thus letting me drop the AMT).

 

As for the LT tryout - where I buy they have a 30-day money back guarantee no questions asked, so I can try it and return if not happy :) Decisions, decisions...

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1 hour ago, stratgilmour said:

Thank you for the great insight @zappazapper

 

The switcher is really needed as, during a gig, I might need to reach for the backup guitar and activate immediately without the need of exchanging cables etc.

 

As for the LT: it does seem a great piece of kit but, from what I read, its even bigger than the G-System. One of the reasons to change is the dimensions/weight of the pedalboard. Ok weight would be better but dimensions - again a large pedalboard is needed. That's why I was inclined to the HX Stomp XL (for having amp + cabs thus letting me drop the AMT).

 

As for the LT tryout - where I buy they have a 30-day money back guarantee no questions asked, so I can try it and return if not happy :) Decisions, decisions...

AFAIK, the XL doesn't come with any more processing power than the normal Stomp, just more switches, so it's not going to help you get the AMT off the board any better than the Stomp. 

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42 minutes ago, zappazapper said:

AFAIK, the XL doesn't come with any more processing power than the normal Stomp, just more switches, so it's not going to help you get the AMT off the board any better than the Stomp. 

 

On the other hand the LT would be a drop in on the Pedaltrain, without having to acquire a new pedalboard...

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10 minutes ago, stratgilmour said:

 

On the other hand it will be a drop in on the Pedaltrain, without having to acquire a new pedalboard...

Again, it's my suggestion that once you have the chance to try the LT, and find out that the models it has sound as good or better than your pedals, and that with presets, snapshots, and the ability to assign multiple bypass-states and parameter controllers to individual footswitches, that it's much easier to control than using individual pedals, you're going to have plenty of room on your pedalboard for an LT, because your pedals won't be there anymore. 

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8 hours ago, spaceatl said:

Just to be 100% clear, I am using a stomp XL as a midi controller to control the Source Audio neural hub. A stomp and separate MC would have been too much real estate for me. 

 

You said...

On 11/5/2021 at 11:32 AM, spaceatl said:

If you had an older amplifier with CV footswitches, you might need to add a midi controlled relay box....lots of options on that.

 

I was just pointing out, as you did, that the Ext Amp function doesn't work perfectly for every amp, but that there are MIDI-based options that might be able to help. This is what I ended up finding: 

 

https://amtelectronics.com/new/amt-fs-2midi/

 

It's the only MIDI-compatible amp switcher that has two footswitches and both sends and receives MIDI CC messages. I wouldn't assume this works with every amp either, but if your amp isn't compatible with the Ext Amp function on the Helix, this might be the first thing to try. 

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30 minutes ago, stratgilmour said:

@zappazapper I have a Marshall DSL20HR... do you reckon it would work with the Helix amp switching?

 

I can't say for sure, or at the very least I don't want you to spend money based on my assurance that it will. But I will say that from what I gathered from searching this forum for answers to my own switching issues, it seems that Mesa Boogie amps are generally the ones that come up the most for having switching issues. I don't recall Marshalls coming up that much as far as the switching issue. The issue with Marshalls seems to have more to do with 4CM and the parallel FX Loop that some of them have and the adjustable loop level. I have a JCM900 that works fine (it has a serial loop and the loop level is easy enough to figure out), although it's one of those ones that doesn't have separate clean and dirty channels, only a switchable dual volume controls, like a solo switch, which I wouldn't use with the Helix because it's just easier and more versatile to do a solo boost internally on the Helix, so I've never tested it. 

 

There's really only one way to know for sure - get your hands on one and see if it works.

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23 minutes ago, zappazapper said:

 

I can't say for sure, or at the very least I don't want you to spend money based on my assurance that it will. But I will say that from what I gathered from searching this forum for answers to my own switching issues, it seems that Mesa Boogie amps are generally the ones that come up the most for having switching issues. I don't recall Marshalls coming up that much as far as the switching issue. The issue with Marshalls seems to have more to do with 4CM and the parallel FX Loop that some of them have and the adjustable loop level. I have a JCM900 that works fine (it has a serial loop and the loop level is easy enough to figure out), although it's one of those ones that doesn't have separate clean and dirty channels, only a switchable dual volume controls, like a solo switch, which I wouldn't use with the Helix because it's just easier and more versatile to do a solo boost internally on the Helix, so I've never tested it. 

 

There's really only one way to know for sure - get your hands on one and see if it works.

 

The Marshall haves serial loop. Many thanks again for the great insight :)

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One more question if anyone can help me? @zappazapper sorry for bothering again...

 

How can I setup the presets in order to have a path with amp + cab for playing direct to mixer and another path with just the effects to play thru the amp?

 

For instance, I have Chorus + Reverb. On rehearsals I want that patch to go thru a amp + cab sim for mixer, but when playing live I want just the Chorus + Reverb as I'm using a physical amp.

 

Is it possible within the same patch to have both? Does the outputs need to be different? I'm new to this concept so sorry of this is a noob question... How does the paths work?

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7 hours ago, stratgilmour said:

One more question if anyone can help me? @zappazapper sorry for bothering again...

 

How can I setup the presets in order to have a path with amp + cab for playing direct to mixer and another path with just the effects to play thru the amp?

 

For instance, I have Chorus + Reverb. On rehearsals I want that patch to go thru a amp + cab sim for mixer, but when playing live I want just the Chorus + Reverb as I'm using a physical amp.

 

Is it possible within the same patch to have both? Does the outputs need to be different? I'm new to this concept so sorry of this is a noob question... How does the paths work?

Yes, you would create a Split-Y block by pressing the ACTION button and moving the AMP&CAB block down to Path 1B (you might have to move the Split block to the right place by using the ACTION button), then move the Merge block also down to Path 1B (again by pressing the ACTION button) to create an output on that Path. Then at the Output blocks you set your desired outputs, probably 1/4" for your amp and XLR for the PA. 

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12 minutes ago, zappazapper said:

Yes, you would create a Split-Y block by pressing the ACTION button and moving the AMP&CAB block down to Path 1B (you might have to move it to the right place by using the ACTION button), then move the Merge block also down to Path 1B (again by pressing the ACTION button) to create an output on that Path. Then at the Output blocks you set your desired outputs, probably 1/4" for your amp and XLR for the PA. 

 

Awesome! It's also a great backup in case the amp fails during a soundcheck or gig ;)

 

And many thanks again @zappazapper!!

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Still related: having second thoughts in buying a effect unit now... I wonder if 2022 would bring any hardware update (a Helix "2") or something like that.

 

Hate to buy something now if in a few months a new hardware pops up... I guess this is the story of everything (well maybe except guitars!) but still...

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That's a fair concern, if you want the latest and greatest. IIRC the main project manager has said that nothing like that is coming down the pipe anytime soon, although there are many reasons he could be saying that, and it might be that not all of them are "because it's true". At any rate, IMHO I can't really think of much that has to be improved from the hardware side. More processing power is always a good thing, especially since the CPU-hogging polyphonic effects came with 3.0, but other than that, all my gripes are about configuration and control, and I'd rather they spend their energy making THIS Helix better in that respect than building a new one. But that doesn't mean they're not, so I certainly can't reassure you that they aren't. Tough call. 

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2 hours ago, stratgilmour said:

Hate to buy something now if in a few months a new hardware pops up... 

 

People have been saying this for years..... in the meantime, they could have been enjoying a Helix! 

 

There are 6 variations of the Helix right now (not counting PODGO)... the flagships being the original FLOOR & RACK/Controller. The hardware for each is just an interface for the same software.... they don't sound any different other than the fact you can run MORE on the larger versions.  Hardware will eventually come that overtakes the "flagship" position (likely more DSP, maybe a touchscreen, maybe this.... maybe that.... maybe... maybe... maybe....) but under the hood, it will still sound the same. Software updates will apply to all models... with very few limitations. 

 

If something fits your wants/needs now, IMO there is no reason not to dive in. 

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3 hours ago, stratgilmour said:

Hate to buy something now if in a few months a new hardware pops up... I guess this is the story of everything (well maybe except guitars!) but still...

 

SPOILER ALERT: There will be new hardware in a few months... there always is. If not from Line 6, then it'll be somebody else...and maybe that thing will suit your needs even better than Helix, whatever it turns out to be... or the next thing after that...ad on infinitum.

 

Tech evolves faster than most can keep with, financially... unless you're filthy rich and can afford to buy one of everything that comes down the pike, finding a new "favorite whatever" every 6 months. But for the rest of us rabble, we eventually have to pick something, and stick with it for a while. So do that, and don't bother lamenting over missing out on "the next big thing", because nothing retains that title long enough to matter anymore.... otherwise you'll never buy anything.

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