Drive pedals don't sound right using 4CM

[adagosto]

4 hours ago, zappazapper said:

I still don't know what you mean by "in the power section". The power section of what? Your amp?

 

Tube amps have two amps sections...you know what I mean...the preamp and the power amp. The preamp does almost all the coloring of the sound and the power amp amps it all up. That's where the Line 6 amp models often sound the best.

 

4 hours ago, zappazapper said:

That's kind of the point of 4CM, is the choice to use your amp's preamp or not. So no, you don't HAVE to run your signal through your Mesa preamp. Your signal will always make it to your power amp via the Stomp outputs and the chorus and delay pedals. You only use your Mesa preamp if that's the sound you're looking for, otherwise you can use an amp model. 

 

Ok that makes sense. Nevermind....

 

Can you suggest a Stomp signal chain? I'm a little unsure of where the FX Loop L goes relative to other pedal models.

[zappazapper]

23 minutes ago, adagosto said:

Tube amps have two amps sections...you know what I mean...the preamp and the power amp. The preamp does almost all the coloring of the sound and the power amp amps it all up. That's where the Line 6 amp models often sound the best.

 

OK so you're talking about full Amp models. You do understand that because we're talking about 4CM, which involves separating the preamp and the power amp sections of an actual real-world guitar amp, just saying "power amp" leaves a lot of room for misinterpretation. I thought you were talking about the power amp in your Mesa.

 

28 minutes ago, adagosto said:

Can you suggest a Stomp signal chain? I'm a little unsure of where the FX Loop L goes relative to other pedal models.

 

Well, where do you think it goes? Sorry, I know you're looking for easy answers here but I'm trying to get you to understand what's going on so that you can figure it out for yourself, because ultimately nobody is going to be able to really help you build presets unless they're in the room with you.

 

You already have a pretty good general idea of how a typical signal flow for guitar works - guitar > compression (maybe) > distortion > preamp > modulation > delay > reverb > power amp. You just need to figure out how to extend that general idea to the Stomp's specific workflow. You know your distortions are in the FX Loop Left and your Mesa preamp is in the FX Loop Right. So you tell me what the Stomp block order is then...

[adagosto]

5 minutes ago, zappazapper said:

You already have a pretty good general idea of how a typical signal flow for guitar works - guitar > compression (maybe) > distortion > preamp > modulation > delay > reverb > power amp. You just need to figure out how to extend that general idea to the Stomp's specific workflow. You know your distortions are in the FX Loop Left and your Mesa preamp is in the FX Loop Right. So you tell me what the Stomp block order is then...

 

Ok.....here it goes.....

It has to be the same as the other set up.

 

So I would start with the compressor, distortion and boost, then the FX Loop L block. Everything to the left of the FX Loop L should get sucked up and sent left.

 

Then everything after the FX Loop L block would be the modulation, delay and reverb.

 

Block 1: compressor

Block 2: distortion

Block 3: Boost

Block 4: FX Loop L

Block 5: amp model

Block 6: modulation

Block 7: delay

Block 8: reverb

 

[zappazapper]

1 minute ago, adagosto said:

Everything to the left of the FX Loop L should get sucked up and sent left.

 

Haha. I mean, your block order isn't wrong, but you keep saying things that are incredibly confusing to me. What does "sucked up" mean? When you say "sent left" do you mean it's being sent to the FX Loop Left? Please use very specific language because we're discussing a rather technical issue and it seems that every post comes with a potential misinterpretation that is making it hard for me to help you. 

[adagosto]

Sorry my bad...

Yes I mean "sent left" means it will be sent into the FX Loop L.

 

Ok. Now that I've got that, what I'd to understand now is this...you mentioned the advantage to your suggested cable hookup method is that, "[you can] take advantage of the variable impedance control, which should help to make both your distortion pedals and your Mesa preamp sound better..."

 

Do I need to do anything in the Stomp to do this or is this done automatically?

[SaschaFranck]

3 hours ago, adagosto said:

Do I need to do anything in the Stomp to do this or is this done automatically?

 

Page 18 of the manual describes how to access it (input block). Basically, you can set the input impedance manually (and save the status per preset or snapshot) or you can set it to "auto", in which case it will select the proper impedance either to suiit the first block or to suit the first active block (you need to select that behaviour in your global preferences).

[adagosto]

I will try it out and let you know how I do. Thank you so much for everything.

[adagosto]

Ok tested it out and I didn't care for it. Went back to the original cableing.

 

I can say this for sure....the Stomp doesn't play nice with external pedals. It works technically, but not great. My Revival Drive does the best because it has gobs of tone sculpting ability. It seems that the Stomp has an effect of darkening the tone of physical pedals. I say that because in order to get the sound right when using the Revival Drive with the Stomp I need to brighten up the pedal. It works....but the other pedals I have just don't fair as well.

 

So my take is sell the Stomp and get a Helix LT. If not just for the bigger screen. They are pretty close to the same price anyway.

 

I'm disappointed, but I've got bigger problems than this one!!!

 

The good news is, I can used the Stomp in a 4CM and get the job done. I do think there's more satisfaction our of my pedals, but for now, I think I just move on with it.

 

HUGE THANKS to everyone in this forum for getting me straight!

[SaschaFranck]

Hm. There's really not much of a reason why your pedals shouldn't work well in front of the Stomp. Did you check all impedance and Input Pad options?

[adagosto]

Ok. My fingers hurt I've been playing so much trying to figure this stuff out. Maybe that's my problem, I need to buy more gear, more often to get me to practice more.....I love that idea!

 

Ok. I think I've got this thing understood now.

 

For me a least the logic is this....if I want to use an amp model, avoid using my overdrive pedals. They don't seem to play nice with each other. But, if I'm going to use amp models with my physical chorus and delay pedal, the amp model settings have to be set just right. Not so much my delay pedal, but if the amp model gain section gets even a little high, like about 3.0, the chorus pedal starts to sound boomy. This could be more about my 2x12 speakers. Less gain than that, it's good. If I want to use my Mesa preamp with my physical pedals, that works great except additional modeled pedals are very particular. The Deluxe Comp for instance causes my TC Spark to sound terrible, but most of the legacy compressors sound really good.

 

So....

-- Line 6 Amp model yes, physical drive pedals no, physical effects pedals and models yes.

-- Mesa preamp yes, physical drive pedals yes, Line 6 front of amp pedals maybe, physical effects pedals and models yes.

 

That's not a bad place to be!!!

 

[zappazapper]

It's not that the Stomp has the effect of darkening the tone of your pedals, it's that your pedals have their own input impedance, which when plugged directly into your guitar, load the pickups in a particular way that affects certain properties, mainly frequency response. Now that your guitar is no longer directly connected to your pedals, your pickups are being loaded differently, which makes your signal sound different. Also, there could be an impedance issue with how the FX Loop interacts with your pedals, which can be adjusted in Global Settings > Ins/Outs. Since your pedals are designed to be plugged into a guitar directly, you might want to use the "Instrument" setting here instead of "Line". 

 

The point is that there is no inherent incompatibility issue between your Stomp and your pedals, it's just a matter of finding the right settings. Many have gone through the same headaches trying to get 4CM working, which is essentially the same thing as putting a distortion pedal in an FX Loop. I've been trying to get it working properly for 15 years and I'm still not sure I got it. Just keep experimenting and asking questions. You'll get it working properly sooner or later. 

[adagosto]

Hey zappazapper, 

Few things....

I went back to the original cable hookup. This is the one that has my pedals immediately after my guitar and into the Input L/mono.

 

With what I have and the settings I have, the sound is excellent and predictable. I think a lot of my problem before was the combination of Line 6 pedals and amp models using in conjunction with my physical pedals. Some modeled pedals just don't sound good with my physical pedals while others sound excellent.

 

I think I'm good now.....for now... LOL.

[adagosto]

FWIW....

 

Since getting these connections right and setting up the preset properly, I learned something important that I think was causing more of the problem than anything else....Stomp volume.

 

I have found that when using the Stomp with other pedals, no matter where they are (in front of the Stomp or in the Stomp's loop) the Stomp master volume needs to be all the way up or very close to it. I never did this in practice because at half volume it was already loud enough. What I didn't realize is that from half way to full only makes it a little bit louder, BUT, its that second 50% that adds the magic your external pedals need.

 

So...turn it up!

 

 

[zappazapper]

Yes. Audio is "iterative". Nothing you do at one point in the signal chain is unaffected by every other point in the chain, and going back and forth and adjusting settings from one point in the signal chain to another is essential. In a typical tube amp, the effects return/power amp input occurs before the phase inverter. The phase inverter is almost always also a 12AX7, and it has no less of an ability to color the frequency response and add harmonics than the preamp tubes and the power tubes. So if you run the multi-fx at half volume and the master volume of the amp higher, it's going to sound different than maxing out the volume going into the phase inverter and turning down the master volume, even though both settings might both output the same amount of "loudness". The phase inverter is often the least-considered aspect of a tube amp's sound.