Boost Pedal in FX Loop Sounds Bad

[Wondo100]

I have a Helix Floor that I use in 7CM with two Grandmeisters. I added a Tony Iommi Boost pedal in one of the FX loops at the beginning of the signal chain and it sounds lifeless. When I put the pedal straight in to my amp it sounds like it should. I am wondering why this is. My other two loops are used for my two amps and I really do not lose much tone in that set up but the boost sounds horrible. I really need to use this pedal in the chain. Any thoughts as to why this is? Is the buffer in the Helix just squashing it?

[SaschaFranck]

Some pedals (most notably fuzz types) just don't work well with a buffer in front. Apart from pulling the pedal out of the Helix loop and placing it in front, there's very little you could do about it. It's not the Helix' fault, either.

[Wondo100]

I was kind of figuring this was the issue. Damn. I need this in the chain. It sounds so good when in to the amp direct. I am wondering if something like the Boss MS 3 would be any better? I still use the Helix but for the heavier stuff, I just need a boost in front and a good reverb pedal, my Grandmeister does the rest. 

[SaschaFranck]

1 hour ago, Wondo100 said:

I was kind of figuring this was the issue. Damn. I need this in the chain. It sounds so good when in to the amp direct. I am wondering if something like the Boss MS 3 would be any better? I still use the Helix but for the heavier stuff, I just need a boost in front and a good reverb pedal, my Grandmeister does the rest. 

 

Well, do you necessarily have to have it programmable by switching the loop? I mean, otherwise you could just slap it in front of the Helix.

[SaschaFranck]

Fwiw, I think the MS3 loops are buffered, too.

In case money and space were no issues, you could purchase a dedicated loop switcher as a sort of "sidecar" and control it from the Helix via MIDI.

[rd2rk]

Using an FX Loop adds DA/AD conversions in addition to the AD conversion at the Input.

Something could be getting lost in the translation.

 

The original Rangemaster had an Input Impedance of 22-32k (per Tito83's impedance chart). If the pedal is true to the original specs, your pickups are being loaded at whatever the first active block is, not 22-32k. If the first active block is the FX Loop that's 1M.

Bottom Line: It won't sound the same. Check the specs for your pedal to see what it's Input Impedance is, then try setting the Input Block's In-Z to match (try 22 or 32k if the pedal's specs don't list the Input Impedance) instead of AUTO. Since the Input Impedance thing is mostly about how your pickups are loaded, and the Input Impedance circuit comes before the rest of the signal chain, that might help.

 

Note: If you don't know about first active block, Helix has an Analog Input Impedance selector. To set it to automatically set itself based on the Input Impedance of the first active block, in Global Settings>Preferences, set Auto In Z to Enabled; In the Preset's Input Block set In-Z to Auto.

 

Other options:

 

Deranged Master - it's a Rangemaster (what TI used) with mods (like TI's).

Kinky Boost with the GAIN down.

Try any of the Helix OD's with the GAIN down.

Use a GAIN Block.

Use EQ to fine tune whatever comes closest.

[Wondo100]

Hey rd2rk,

 

I have tried the onboard boosts. None of them do it like the TI Boost in to my amp. I kind of wanted to be able to have the Helix turn this loop on and off as I select different presets on the amp. I guess my only other option is to try the global settings thing you are talking about. I guess if I do this in global, then all presets will be like this or just the one I am building with the TI Boost?

[rd2rk]

4 minutes ago, Wondo100 said:

Hey rd2rk,

 

I have tried the onboard boosts. None of them do it like the TI Boost in to my amp. I kind of wanted to be able to have the Helix turn this loop on and off as I select different presets on the amp. I guess my only other option is to try the global settings thing you are talking about. I guess if I do this in global, then all presets will be like this or just the one I am building with the TI Boost?

 

The specific Input Impedance setting is in the Input Block. IOW, it's per preset. The default is Auto, but you can set it to anything you like, and even use Snapshots or Footswitches to change it as needed.

[Wondo100]

So, in the preset I am building, change the IN-Z to auto and with global at being enabled it will pick up that setting in the preset? Or should I figure out the impedance of the pedal and set it to that?

[rd2rk]

6 hours ago, rd2rk said:

Check the specs for your pedal to see what it's Input Impedance is, then try setting the Input Block's In-Z to match (try 22 or 32k if the pedal's specs don't list the Input Impedance) instead of AUTO.

 

Keep in mind that if you have a Helix effect in the signal chain, it's Input Impedance could be different. The AUTO setting works for Helix FX because they AUTOmatically set the Input Block's In-Z as needed. Helix has NO WAY to know what external FX you have in the FX Loop, which, if it's the first ACTIVE Block, sets the In-Z to 1M.

 

What all of that means is that, unless your external effect is ALWAYS ON, you want to set the Input-Z to whatever it needs WHEN YOU ACTIVATE THE FX LOOP! 

 

Look at the attached preset. When you activate the FX Loop by pressing FS1, it changes the Input-Z to 32k. When you deactivate the FX Loop it goes back to AUTO to accommodate any Helix FX.

 

NOTE that if you have a Helix effect in the signal chain PRECEDING the FX Loop that's going to be active AT THE SAME TIME as the FX Loop, you'll need to make a hard decision as to which, the HX Effect or the external effect, you want the Input-z optimized for.

 

The easiest way to deal with this is to use the external pedal the way it was designed to be used, between the Guitar and Helix, but, depending on what else you've got going on in the preset, the above might work.

Wondo100.hlx

[codamedia]

One thing I don't see mentioned yet in this thread... something you might want to double check? 

Make sure the LOOP you want to use for this pedal is set to "Instrument Level". Line Level can often make stomp boxes behave very differently than we expect. 

 

I also agree with everything mentioned already about the input impedance. That could very well be the problem. 

 

29 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

When you activate the FX Loop by pressing FS1, it changes the Input-Z to 32k. When you deactivate the FX Loop it goes back to AUTO to accommodate any Helix FX.

 

^^^ this ^^^ is how I would approach that problem... I would just set the "off value" as a fixed position as well, avoiding auto altogether. (eg: off = 1M, on = 32k)

[SaschaFranck]

Fwiw, I would try all the things rd2rk suggested. But, for a start, just connect everything the way you had it and see whether the input impedance changes things for the better (for this test you could ignore any nifty switchings and/or the global settings, just try the various input impedances before tinkering any further. Because, as unfortunate as it might be, I think it's not all just about the load presented to your guitar. A lot of the behaviour of several pedals is related to that, but some pedals don't seem to work properly anymore with a buffer in front, regardless of the impedance your guitar will "see" on any previous devices. At least that's my personal experience with some drive pedals. They just sound and feel different in a loop, sometimes *very* different.

 

Fwiw, do you use the amp switching remote output of the Helix? In case you don't, you could build yourself a little A/B loop switcher with a remote control input to switch between loop A and B (there's circuits around for these kinda things pretty much anywhere and assembling them is pretty doable even if you're a DIY hack like me). You could then slap the Helix part from input to send into one loop and your drive into the other. That way, you could control the status from the Helix and still have the plain sound without the Helix buffering (or otherwise altering) the signal.

[SaschaFranck]

9 minutes ago, codamedia said:

Make sure the LOOP you want to use for this pedal is set to "Instrument Level". Line Level can often make stomp boxes behave very differently than we expect. 

 

Yeah, this! Absolutely mandatory!

[rd2rk]

11 minutes ago, codamedia said:

Make sure the LOOP you want to use for this pedal is set to "Instrument Level". Line Level can often make stomp boxes behave very differently than we expect. 

 

Yes, forgot to mention that!

 

12 minutes ago, codamedia said:

I would just set the "off value" as a fixed position as well, avoiding auto altogether. (eg: off = 1M, on = 32k)

 

I don't advise that since not all of the Helix FX use 1M, and even the values in @Tito83 's excellent impedance spreadsheet are not all correct, or 100% correct for all versions of some pedais. SCREAM808 for example. I've seen at least three different values in various places on the web.

[codamedia]

35 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

I don't advise that since not all of the Helix FX use 1M.

 

FWIW... my current presets all run fixed impedance of 1M... which is why I said "that is what I would do". For 40 years my guitar has always seen a buffered pedal or a wireless.... aka, fixed impedance. The impedance of the effects downstream never mattered.... it's just what I am used to. 

[rd2rk]

12 minutes ago, codamedia said:

 

FWIW... my current presets all run fixed impedance of 1M... which is why I said "that is what I would do". For 40 years my guitar has always seen a buffered pedal or a wireless.... aka, fixed impedance. The impedance of the effects downstream never mattered.... it's just what I am used to. 

 

I get it. If OP was using wireless, the rest of this discussion would be unnecessary, as it wouldn't matter WHERE he puts his external FX!

If it turns out that he IS using wireless, I'm going to be REALLY bummed. I've done a LOT of typing in this thread for it to turn out to be all for nought!

[Wondo100]

Nope. Not using wireless in this particular configuration. I do have wireless, but I use it with my Les Pauls. For what I am using the TI Boost for, you guessed it SGs and I hate having the wireless L6 Relay sticking up out of the top of my SGs. I have not had a chance to try rd2rk's preset yet, but I will give this a try. If it does not work, I will probably use it in front of the Helix, but that limits me being able to hit a switch on the Helix and have it change settings on my amp and turn the pedal off. Fx Loop for this pedal is set to instrument. My amp Loops are set to line via Hughes and Kettner that told me to use line for their fx loops. 

[Wondo100]

Quote

2 hours ago, SaschaFranck said:

Fwiw, I would try all the things rd2rk suggested. But, for a start, just connect everything the way you had it and see whether the input impedance changes things for the better (for this test you could ignore any nifty switchings and/or the global settings, just try the various input impedances before tinkering any further. Because, as unfortunate as it might be, I think it's not all just about the load presented to your guitar. A lot of the behaviour of several pedals is related to that, but some pedals don't seem to work properly anymore with a buffer in front, regardless of the impedance your guitar will "see" on any previous devices. At least that's my personal experience with some drive pedals. They just sound and feel different in a loop, sometimes *very* different.

 

Fwiw, do you use the amp switching remote output of the Helix? In case you don't, you could build yourself a little A/B loop switcher with a remote control input to switch between loop A and B (there's circuits around for these kinda things pretty much anywhere and assembling them is pretty doable even if you're a DIY hack like me). You could then slap the Helix part from input to send into one loop and your drive into the other. That way, you could control the status from the Helix and still have the plain sound without the Helix buffering (or otherwise altering) the signal.

Good ideas. I will try this tomorrow. Lots of things to try out. I will let you all know and thank you so much for all of your help. I am determined to figure this out. 

 

[SaschaFranck]

5 hours ago, codamedia said:

FWIW... my current presets all run fixed impedance of 1M...

 

Just like you, I got used to playing through buffered things through the years, but on the Helix I'm usually going for 230k in all my live patches. For whatever reasons, this feels closer to what I'm used to, even if, at least on paper, it shouldn't (I'd get away with 1M just fine, though). Anyway, I also prefer a fixed impedance due to the way my patches are laid out.

I would possibly reconsider this approach and go for "auto" in case I liked the fuzzes in the Helix, but I don't (fwiw, for a sort of fuzzy sound I really like the Top Secret OD - which IMO is working best with 230k).

[Wondo100]

I did not get the chance to try some of these things yesterday, BUT, I did hear back from Laney that the TI Boost input is 1M ohm. So, how would I handle that? Should I, like rd2rk said,  set up a preset where I will be using this boost where the IN-Z is 1M when the boost is on and back to 230K when it is off for the benefit of other blocks in the single chain? This with the global IN-Z set to enabled??

[SaschaFranck]

11 minutes ago, Wondo100 said:

I did not get the chance to try some of these things yesterday, BUT, I did hear back from Laney that the TI Boost input is 1M ohm. So, how would I handle that? Should I, like rd2rk said,  set up a preset where I will be using this boost where the IN-Z is 1M when the boost is on and back to 230K when it is off for the benefit of other blocks in the single chain? This with the global IN-Z set to enabled??

 

Well, given that the TI Boost comes with 1MOhm input impedance, it should work fine within an otherwise empty preset. In case it doesn't, /cue my reply from above: it's not all just about the input impedance, some pedals simply don't like buffers in front. However, in case it does work fine, you might think about whatever switching strategies. But I'd check that before.

[Wondo100]

Ok. So, I am going to use this signal path with Noise Gate off>FX loop with TI Boost >FX Loop for amp>delay>reverb

second path without TI Boost> Dual guitar effect with slight delay>reverb. 

 

I will use snapshots to send MIDI to amp to go from clean to dirty and to turn boost on and off. 

[rd2rk]

Sounds like this is just one of those pedals that doesn't like being in an FX loop. Your only real option in that case is to try EQs. Good Luck!

[Wondo100]

Thanks for all the help. The conclusion, this pedal only comes alive straight into the amp or in front of the Helix. So wanted it work in the loop.