Helix Floor Foot Pedal

[Helvellyn]

Hi,

Does anyone have an opinion the the expression pedal that comes with the Helix Floor?  Is it good to use or are the Mission expression pedals (or similar) better?

I'm very much in two minds between the floor and rack units so trying decide between the floor unit or the rack+controller+seperate pedal (Mission probably).

 

Many Thanks

 

Simon

[rd2rk]

Helix Floor Exp Pedal works fine. Feels good. I'm not gigging it, but I've used it most every day since 2016.

If I used my HXS out of the house, I'd get a Mission in a heartbeat (FCB1010/UNO2 works fine for home - has lots of buttons, too!).

FWIW - for me, the choice of Floor or Rack comes down to this - are you playing at the kind of venues where you'd fear for the well-being of your $1500 Floor, vs your $450 Floor Control ?

 

[Helvellyn]

Thanks for getting back to me.  As a follow up on the floor / rack choice you mention I'm unsure if I can use the floor on my developing front room set up.  Do I need a seperate audio interface for the helix to work in a vocal mic, guitar and backing track set up which I am starting to use in the front room when I'm left in the house on my own (It's the only room suitable to playing relatively loud without headphones and quite frankly it's really fun to do).  I currently use a UR816C and plug everything through that using the iOS version of Cubase to control it (I use the full version to make the backing tracks which runs on my desktop PC).  If I still need the audio interface I suspect a rack might be a better option as my UR816C audio interface is a 19 inch rack sized audio interface and I'll need to carry that anyway. However if I can get away with just the floor, and can just use that with an iOS device (I have no laptop) to do the vocals, guitar and backing track then I don't need my audio interface and the floor becomes much easier due to its portability.

 

Any thoughts?

[rd2rk]

The interface and routing functions are virtually identical.

 

If I were planning my rig, and knew I needed a rack-mount mixer/AI, ALWAYS, I'd still get the Floor. One piece vs three.

 

FWIW, I use my Floor with a Scarlett 18i20 - guitars, bass, eDrums, synth, backing tracks/recording (Reaper/Windows laptop) - and still have room for vocals if someone comes over who can sing :-). I use my iPhone for phone calls, and the flashlight, so I can't comment on anything in the Apple orchard.

 

I suggest that you DL the manuals for both devices and see for yourself if one or the other is better suited to your specific needs.

[datacommando]

11 hours ago, Helvellyn said:

As a follow up on the floor / rack choice you mention I'm unsure if I can use the floor on my developing front room set up.

Hi,

 

I’m with “rd2rk” on this in respect of your idea of a “front room” set up - the Helix floor is the way to go. It’s just one thing to pick up and move, less wiring to contend with (patch bays etc.)

 

The floor is a self contained unit, comprising 8 channel Audio Interface, complete with XLR mic input and phantom power, plus all the required digital modelling and expression pedal built in. You don’t mention what you will be using for monitoring this “front room” rig, but add a pair of (minimum 5”) powered monitors, stick the iPad (iPhone) on the USB (Camera Connection Kit) and you’re good to go.

 

I am studio based, but use the floor model on a stand right by my side which enables me to make on the fly edits. Ha! What about the expression pedal if it’s on a stand you cry! No problem - I use 2 M-Audio cheapo, cheapo pedals in the exp inputs. These are great and do the job and are used almost daily. Plugging in extra bits and pieces is simple as I can see everything along the rear panel. With a rack mounted version you possibly need to have a patchbay and all the extra wiring that entails to access all the ins and outs without scrabbling around  like a coal miner in the back of the rack (ye gods, I’m too old for that nonsense now).
 

Helix is hooked up to Logic Pro on my 32GB iMac Retina 5k to handle guitar, bass, external 18” rack synth modules, vox etc. A pair of 8” Tannoy Reveal powered monitors are patched to the Helix XLR out. An Arturia KeyLab 61 controller keyboard works both the hardware and soft MIDI synths along with an X-Touch universal controller handles all the DAW mixing duties. Works a treat.

 

Sell your Steinberg UR816C and get some decent speakers.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

[Helvellyn]

Thank you both for your responses, really helpful. 

 

Datacommando, you mention using a pair of powered monitors rather than a cab, how does the sound from those compare to the 212 Powercab Plus or similar?  Is it comparable in terms of getting accuracy from the cabinet simulations?  I'm tempted by stereo monitors for the front room (I was thinking of a pair of Yamaha DXR10 Active PA speakers) as I can leave them in place and they can to used with my wife's stereo system when not in use.  But if monitors don't give accurate cabinet simulations I'll have to rething (Maybe use the 212 Powercab as a stereo speaker as rd2rk suggested in the other thread).

[datacommando]

6 hours ago, Helvellyn said:

I'm tempted by stereo monitors for the front room (I was thinking of a pair of Yamaha DXR10 Active PA speakers) as I can leave them in place and they can to used with my wife's stereo system when not in use.

Whoa! Oh, no, no, no - this has just taken an unexpected turn, and that is down a road that I would rather not travel. Suddenly, and out of nowhere comes the statement - “and they can to used with my wife's stereo system”. Yeah, right!
 

Nope, no way never will I genuinely get involved with that - you really need to speak with her about your idea of turning your home front room into something other than it’s intended purpose.

 

Suffice to say, you had replies in the Powercab forum, basically saying that even though the PC 212 will do stereo, yes! Although it’s not quite what most folks would expect (by most folks, I really mean your wife). The Yamaha DXR10 are FRFR 700w speakers, and maybe overkill when placed beside your wife’s $300 hi-fi system (as you noted in the other thread). In the real world, high fidelity domestic speakers are a completely different beast from live P.A. systems and/or studio monitors. 
 

Here endeth my input.

 

;-)
 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

[DunedinDragon]

7 hours ago, Helvellyn said:

 

Datacommando, you mention using a pair of powered monitors rather than a cab, how does the sound from those compare to the 212 Powercab Plus or similar?  Is it comparable in terms of getting accuracy from the cabinet simulations?  I'm tempted by stereo monitors for the front room (I was thinking of a pair of Yamaha DXR10 Active PA speakers) as I can leave them in place and they can to used with my wife's stereo system when not in use.  But if monitors don't give accurate cabinet simulations I'll have to rething (Maybe use the 212 Powercab as a stereo speaker as rd2rk suggested in the other thread).

 

I think what Datacommando was referring to was probably powered studio monitors such as Yamaha HS7 speakers which would work fine on both the stereo as well as with the Helix as they're made for studio use.  DXR10 and similar speakers are made for live PA use and would probably be overwhelming in the setting you're talking about.  The Powercab, studio monitors or live PA speakers are all viable and accurate for model and cabinet simulations.  It's just that they're all made specifically for different usage situations.

Powercab is ideal for something like a rehearsal space or as a live traditional style stage amp, but is a full range flat response (FRFR) system that can provide the accuracy needed in modeling.  Studio monitors like the HS7 or similar are again FRFR style speakers but meant for critical listening in controlled environment.  Live performance powered speakers like the DXR10 are designed specifically to fill large spaces evenly and in close up applications would sound pretty harsh.

I actually have both.  I have HS7's in my studio for both recording purposes as well as general music listening on YouTube and such.  I also have a DXR12 but that's in a rehearsal space with my mixing board where I prepare and dial in my presets for live performances.

Hopefully that puts things in perspective for you.

[Helvellyn]

Thanks for the responses, sorry, if i'm a little confused still. 

Dunedin, is this reading correct?

A good pair of studio monitors would work Ok for my wifi's stereo system (Not as good as equivalent cost Hi-Fi speakers but potentially better than her current set of speakers which cost £300), and I would be able to plug in the Helix to enable me to get accurate cab simulations. 

However, a powercab would not sound great for her audio system and a PA like the DXR10 is massive overkill and would probably, literally, bring the house down (It is over 100 years old and as with many houses in the area, cheaply built at the time to service people working in the now closed steel works).

 

I do use a set of small studio monitors when I do recording or create backing tracks on cubase (A pair of IK Multimedia iLoud MTMs) and they do sound very clean to me but they don't really fill a large room in the way you would want from a set of stereo speakers (I tried carrying them downstairs and plugging her stereo into them and it didn't really work unless you were in the right spot).  Are there some studio monitors that fill the room better and that would allow for accurate cab simulations?  The budget is quite high (so around the price of the powercab 212 plus or lower).

 

And just for those worried I have talked it over with her really.  Her position is that I can do it if the speakers are better than her current ones.

[DunedinDragon]

High end HI-FI speakers are generally "sweetened" a bit for more casual listening so in that regard they might not be as accurate in their representation of modeled cabinets within the Helix.  However, it may not matter as much in a casual listening environment if you're just casually playing the Helix in that environment.  Larger studio monitors might give you more of what you want in a casual listening environment, but you're exactly right that listener positioning as well as speaker positioning is much more critical with most higher end studio speakers.  In professional studio environments they typically have both near field and far field monitors used together in the mixing board area to help fill the space as that's where they often listen to the mix with the musicians to evaluate a mix which might also be an option for you.

The thing is that consumer HIFI is meant for general consumers which is an entirely different audience than professional studio gear so a lot of latitude is taken to make it more appropriate in a situation where people aren't in a generally fixed location or in a non prime listening position so it might not work for both in your application if, for example, you want to use that same system for critically evaluating a preset you're trying to dial in.

Also, it's not that a live PA speaker would "bring the house down", more that it's designed specifically to fill a large space evenly both horizontally and over a longer distance.  If you've ever been to a concert or a club and stood near a PA speaker you've already experienced how bright and harsh it can sound.  That's because PA speakers are designed to have a consistent sound across a very wide horizontal radius (sometimes as much as 180 degrees) in order for the sound to be consistent for listeners at the far left or far right.  They are also designed to limit the vertical sound radius so they conserve sound energy from being lost in the ceiling or floor to reduce sound pressure loss across longer distances.  All of that combined with the way the high and low frequencies are handled between the main speaker and the high frequency driver can make them quire harsh up close.  In my application in my rehearsal space I generally give my DXR12 about 6 feet of clearance in order to get an accurate feel for how it will sound in live applications.

The bottom line here is that there are always engineering tradeoffs in order to be "best" at doing something.  That's why you can't buy a car that has both the top of the line performance as well as the most economical mileage.  As a consumer you have to make a choice.

[datacommando]

9 hours ago, Helvellyn said:

And just for those worried I have talked it over with her really.  Her position is that I can do it if the speakers are better than her current ones.

 

Oh, that’s good news. The main problem that still remains is you haven’t given us any specifics of the existing hi-fi setup. We need to start somewhere in comparing sound systems.

 

As noted by “DunedinDragon” in the post above, most hi-fi speakers are “tuned”, or “sweetened” for the general listening environment. The Powercab and PA system are really designed for bigger spaces and different job. Studio monitors are what are used by audio engineers to record, and reproduce audio from many sources, as accurately as possible. His comments are spot on in these respects.
 

To give you the the full technical insight of the differences, check this article from those in the know.

https://www.neumann.com/homestudio/en/difference-between-home-stereo-speakers-and-studio-monitors

Oh, yeah - your IK iLoud monitors are great for your near field desktop set up, but as you noted they don’t fill the large space. Not really surprising as they are 50w driving a 3” paper cone - definitely not what they are designed for. Larger bi-amped monitors with 7or 8 inch LF driver one inch tweeter would be more efficient in moving the air.

Hope this helps/makesn sense.

[Helvellyn]

Would midfield monitors work better?

I'm thinking of something like the Dynaudio LYD-48 or the EvE Audio sc307, possibly with the associated subwoofer (Dynaudio 18s or EvE Audio TS112).

 

Admittedly this does seem to be proving a lot less straightforward than I thought.  Maybe I should just look for a lightweight FRFR cabinet and just carry the thing downstairs and play my backing track and guitar/vocals through that rather than have a system which I can just plug into.

[DunedinDragon]

2 hours ago, Helvellyn said:

Would midfield monitors work better?

I'm thinking of something like the Dynaudio LYD-48 or the EvE Audio sc307, possibly with the associated subwoofer (Dynaudio 18s or EvE Audio TS112).

 

Admittedly this does seem to be proving a lot less straightforward than I thought.  Maybe I should just look for a lightweight FRFR cabinet and just carry the thing downstairs and play my backing track and guitar/vocals through that rather than have a system which I can just plug into.

Or maybe just a switching setup for speakers.

Honestly I think you're overanalyzing this.  What you're wanting is the best in all categories, but it doesn't really exist because you have two very diverse categories.  One is a consumer category and one is a professional category.  Consumers could care less about the tedious intricacies of dialing in a modeling environment, they just want a sweet sounding setup to play their recordings.  But a professional endeavor demands control over those kind of intricacies if you want the best in accuracy.

I don't think this is as much of a "which product will fit the situation" as it is "what do I want to accomplish" for each of the divergent activities.  If I were planning on dialing in my Helix for use in a live gig or a flawless recording, the last thing I would want to work with would be a consumer stereo product.  However, I'm perfectly happy with my studio speakers being the main way I listen to music on the Internet when I'm at my desk.  In my bedroom I'm happy with my Bose bluetooth speaker, for listening to tv, music or audio books.  But I only answer to my needs.
 

[datacommando]

3 hours ago, Helvellyn said:

Would midfield monitors work better?

?????
 

1 hour ago, DunedinDragon said:

Honestly I think you're overanalyzing this. 

^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^

 

Jeez! We have gone from recommendations for EXP Pedals to the analysis of pro P.A., PowerCab, Studio Monitors against domestic hi-fi. Are you expecting a concert hall or recording studio in the front room?

 

Biggest issue? 
 

You still haven’t said what the hi- fi system components are, but essentially it seems you really are over thinking this. If your wife has an audio system comprising turntable for vinyl, CD player, FM + DAB radio, USB input, power amp and speakers, and you are wanting to patch in your guitar rig in a domestic living room - it ain’t gonna work (at least no how you imagine it will). Completely unnecessary and far too much stress. How is all this stuff supposed to live together without total chaos. Buy a Powercab and drag it to the garage where you can do no harm.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

 

Happy New Year!

 

[Helvellyn]

3 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

Honestly I think you're overanalyzing this.
 

Yeah, in the cold light of day and many cups of tea later I think I'm doing exactly that.  I've ended up going from briefly wondering if I could get a single set of speakers to do both to desperately trying to shoehorn the concept of a set of speakers to do both.  As a result I've completely lost sight of what we are wanting:  Better Hi-Fi speakers so my wife can get the most out of her new amplifier (A Cambridge Audio CXA81) and something so I can play my guitar and sing (badly) to a backing track while messing about with loads of different amp and cabinet models on my in transit Helix (Which was the whole original point of the thread to decide whether I should get a Helix Floor or the Rack).

As you say, its probably far easier to just get the Powercab and maybe a Gym membership so I can easily carry it more easily.

 

Thanks for all your help.

 

And happy new year to you too.