Distorted effects in effects loop

[jeseyfloyd89]

Hi All,

 

Got a weird one, or maybe im just being thick...

 

Running my Helix with a JVM410H ONLY IN THE EFFECTS LOOP!

 

So signal chain is;

Guitar - Front of JVM - JVM send > Helix return - Helix Send > JVM Return

 

I have the helix set up with the flow being;

Input (Return 2) - Volume pedal - Chorus - Reverb - Delay - EQ - Noise Gate - Output (Send 1)

 

When I play a note on my OD1 Channel on the JVM with the delay im getting a distorted delay? surely it shouldn't be distorted it should be a clean delay afterwards?

AA913861-D7C5-48C3-8F69-2C1CDBF5CE1E.heic

[phil_m]

Well, you don’t have the amp in the Helix’s loop, really. You have the Helix in the amp’s loop still, it’s just that you’re using the Helix’s return and send as the input and output. So if the OD1 channel is dirty, yes, I’d still expect the repeats from the delay to be dirty. That’s kind of the whole idea of putting a delay in the loop.

[jeseyfloyd89]

Thanks Phil just wanted to clarify is all, when I hooked it up with the 4cbl method the delay was a lot cleaner. Unfortunately I can’t use the 4cbl method with the JVM at rehearsal volumes I just get constant microphonic feedback, literally tried everything but the helix just won’t have it, hence why I’m just having to run through the fx loop of the JVM. 

[phil_m]

7 minutes ago, jeseyfloyd89 said:

Thanks Phil just wanted to clarify is all, when I hooked it up with the 4cbl method the delay was a lot cleaner. Unfortunately I can’t use the 4cbl method with the JVM at rehearsal volumes I just get constant microphonic feedback, literally tried everything but the helix just won’t have it, hence why I’m just having to run through the fx loop of the JVM. 

What delay model are you using? If it has a Headroom parameter, try increasing that, and that can clean up the repeats if the signal being fed into the delay is hot.

[jeseyfloyd89]

Nothing drastic just the simple delay is enough for what I need. 

[rd2rk]

Describe, in detail, EXACTLY how your cables are run, and attach a sample preset.

[jeseyfloyd89]

12 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

Describe, in detail, EXACTLY how your cables are run, and attach a sample preset.

Not too sure how more clear to put it than the original post but;

 

Guitar - Boss volume pedal - input of JVM

 

Midi out of helix - Midi input JVM (the helix changes my channels on the JVM)

 

Return out the helix - Send of the JVM

Send of the helix - Return of the JVM

 

Thats literally it, Like I said in a previous comment I can't run the 4cbl method at rehearsal volumes as I just get microphonic feedback and ive tried everything setting wise on the helix and JVM hence why ive just ran it like this. Can't send a picture as im at work but the picture linked to my original post is the set up in question. 

[datacommando]

6 hours ago, jeseyfloyd89 said:

surely it shouldn't be distorted it should be a clean delay afterwards?

 

Exactly what "phil_m" says in his reply above. You have the Chorus - Reverb - Delay being sent back out to an overdriven amp,. Result = distorted delay. No way round that really.

 

Running the 4CM will give you a clean delay as it happens after the OD. Don't know why you're getting microphonic feedback though, there could be dozens of reasons for that. 

 

Hope that makes sense.

[phil_m]

8 minutes ago, datacommando said:

 

Exactly what "phil_m" says in his reply above. You have the Chorus - Reverb - Delay being sent back out to an overdriven amp,. Result = distorted delay. No way round that really.

 

Well, I’d say it’s the opposite. The overdriven amp tone being fed into the day. The majority of saturation from a master volume amp is going to come from the preamp stage, before the effects loop. The whole point of an effects loop is to have effects after preamp distortion.

[jeseyfloyd89]

6 minutes ago, datacommando said:

 

Exactly what "phil_m" says in his reply above. You have the Chorus - Reverb - Delay being sent back out to an overdriven amp,. Result = distorted delay. No way round that really.

 

Running the 4CM will give you a clean delay as it happens after the OD. Don't know why you're getting microphonic feedback though, there could be dozens of reasons for that. 

 

Hope that makes sense.

Yeah makes absolute sense cheers buddy I think I was getting confused because if I stuck for example sake just a boss delay in the loop with no helix that would come through clear? Just wondering why the helix doesn’t do that. 
oh don’t get me started on the microphonic feedback… hate to think it but might even be a faulty unit. 

[rd2rk]

13 minutes ago, jeseyfloyd89 said:

Like I said in a previous comment I can't run the 4cbl method at rehearsal volumes as I just get microphonic feedback

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

That's not normal (the feedback), and I was asking for your cabling when using 4cm, and a sample of a preset you'd use with 4cm.

 

As @phil_m said, if you run a distorted signal into a delay, you'll get distorted delays.

The only way around that is to send a clean signal in parallel to the distorted signal with the delay also in parallel.

You can do this (in 4cm) by splitting your signal prior to the FX Loop Block and putting the delay in that parallel path, rejoining the signal chain after the FX Loop Block.

You then use the Mix Block to control the amount of each signal that goes to other FX before the Output (to Amp Return) Block.

Or, you can route the delayed signal completely around any or all of those post-loop FX.

 

If you send what I requested, once I've verified that you're cabled properly I'll mod your preset to demo the technique.

 

I've attached a demo made with my Egnater. To prove the clean delay, just go to the Mix Block and drop the "A" level all the way down.

I have the MIX on the Delay set to 100% so all you'll hear is the delayed signal, but you can drop that mix to add back the "dry" signal to taste.

 

Of course, this preset will only work if you're cabled correctly, so please do send the description of your cabling and your sample preset so we can sort the "feedback" problem.

Eg OD Cln Dly.hlx

[phil_m]

7 minutes ago, jeseyfloyd89 said:

Yeah makes absolute sense cheers buddy I think I was getting confused because if I stuck for example sake just a boss delay in the loop with no helix that would come through clear? Just wondering why the helix doesn’t do that. 
oh don’t get me started on the microphonic feedback… hate to think it but might even be a faulty unit. 

I still can’t tell if you’re saying the repeats are more saturated than the tone going into them or what… Do you have the Helix effects loop set to line or instrument level? It sounds like perhaps you’re overloading something in the signal chain.

 

If you’re getting microphonic feedback, that probably means the signal going into your amp’s input is too hot. The 4CM method should work with the amp, but sometimes it takes a little massaging to get the gain staging right.

[datacommando]

21 minutes ago, phil_m said:

The whole point of an effects loop is to have effects after preamp distortion.

 

Yep, that's what I mean and in 4CM that's the way it works, but this seems to be wired up the wrong way round - Oh hum!