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Monitoring the Helix on Same Wedge as FOH-signal ... problems??


Axxxeman
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Hi folks!

Having changed from tube amp to the Helix as my main "amp" now, I have a very specific question on monitoring the Helix output.

I might want to add, that my band's PA is a good, compact Dynacord PA with EV FOH speakers. Most event stages in my home city are quite small, so it is optimized to save space. For this reason we have only 3 wedges, one for the keys, one for the drums and guitar (this is me) and bass have to rely on the third one.

The Helix is going by XLR stereo directly into the PA.

 

Sometimes I unfortunately cannot hear myself well in the mix, so I ordered a Yamaha DBR12 to use it as a Helix signal monitor (Helix 1/4" mono out --> DI-box --> DBR12). I am afraid, that, getting the direct blast from the Helix then, I might not be able to hear my share of the FOH mix from the wedge, I have to share with the bassist (who usually is the man on the mixer, as well).

 

So I thought of the DBR12's second signal path. I could feed it with the monitor mix and mixing down both signal paths (from the Helix and FOH) in a way that the Helix is just slightly louder than the guitar in the FOH mix. So I could - theoretically - be in the clean. But! There is an identlical signal in both signal paths, which is my guitar. Would that lead to problems that the guitar signal could be phasing out? If so, how could I avoid this problem? Getting an individual monitor mix without guitar in it, is, unfortunately, out of reach ... Equally difficult would be a modified signal for the 1/4" output with a delay of a few ms, because on a few presets I use all of the Helix' processor power or signal paths (especially on those, where I use acoustic guitar simulator and electric guitar sound at the same time).

 

What are your experiences? Will the phasing problem occur? If so, how could I solve it?

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On 2/9/2022 at 1:58 PM, Axxxeman said:

Hi folks!

Having changed from tube amp to the Helix as my main "amp" now, I have a very specific question on monitoring the Helix output.

I might want to add, that my band's PA is a good, compact Dynacord PA with EV FOH speakers. Most event stages in my home city are quite small, so it is optimized to save space. For this reason we have only 3 wedges, one for the keys, one for the drums and guitar (this is me) and bass have to rely on the third one.

The Helix is going by XLR stereo directly into the PA.

 

Sometimes I unfortunately cannot hear myself well in the mix, so I ordered a Yamaha DBR12 to use it as a Helix signal monitor (Helix 1/4" mono out --> DI-box --> DBR12). I am afraid, that, getting the direct blast from the Helix then, I might not be able to hear my share of the FOH mix from the wedge, I have to share with the bassist (who usually is the man on the mixer, as well).

 

So I thought of the DBR12's second signal path. I could feed it with the monitor mix and mixing down both signal paths (from the Helix and FOH) in a way that the Helix is just slightly louder than the guitar in the FOH mix. So I could - theoretically - be in the clean. But! There is an identlical signal in both signal paths, which is my guitar. Would that lead to problems that the guitar signal could be phasing out? If so, how could I avoid this problem? Getting an individual monitor mix without guitar in it, is, unfortunately, out of reach ... Equally difficult would be a modified signal for the 1/4" output with a delay of a few ms, because on a few presets I use all of the Helix' processor power or signal paths (especially on those, where I use acoustic guitar simulator and electric guitar sound at the same time).

 

What are your experiences? Will the phasing problem occur? If so, how could I solve it?

 

I definitely would NOT set up the DBR12 to simultaneously have a direct feed from the Helix and an AUX mix from the mixer that included my guitar. This is very likely as you suspect to result in some phase cancellation and just general audio confusion.

 

For a room such as you describe with only enough space for three monitor wedges at the front of the stage I would probably just run XLR out to the board and 1/4 direct from the Helix to the DBR12 in my backline and use it strictly as a guitar monitor. That way I get to manage the volume of my guitar monitor on stage rather than relying on a mix sent from the board. Turning up the Helix output to my monitor on stage that way doesn't affect the FOH mix. However since you share a wedge monitor up front with your bass player he needs to hear your guitar. That means you could completely stop feeding your guitar to the shared front wedge if your bass player is positioned such that he can hear your DBR12 in the backline adequately. Many a band has operated that way over the decades, often with only vocals in the wedges. 'Course that results in more volume onstage and can get a bit loud for your fans in the front row. If he can't hear enough of you on stage due to where he is positioned or because turning up is not an option, the alternative would be to leave some guitar fed from the board in your shared wedge monitor. Still keeping only your guitar direct from the Helix in your DBR12 in the backline. Not ideal perhaps but workable. It's only rock & roll and you do what you gotta do.

 

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11 hours ago, HonestOpinion said:

 

For a room such as you describe with only enough space for three monitor wedges at the front of the stage I would probably just run XLR out to the board and 1/4 direct from the Helix to the DBR12 in my backline and use it strictly as a guitar monitor.

 

 

Well, I do sympathize with this solution a lot, especially, because it seems to be the only way, to get a decent (guitar) feedback, when needed. Nore the bassist, nor anyone else in the band should hear my special helix output as they get all the guitar signal, they need, in the monitor mix, which is exactly identical to the FOH mix. Still the problem would remain, that at my (narrow) position, the DBR12 might be overpowering the wedge output of our common monitor mix. We'll see, the wedge still hat not arrived, loads of stuff is stuck in China or on sea, due to corona ... So far, many thanks for sharing your experience!

 

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59 minutes ago, Axxxeman said:

 

Well, I do sympathize with this solution a lot, especially, because it seems to be the only way, to get a decent (guitar) feedback, when needed. Nore the bassist, nor anyone else in the band should hear my special helix output as they get all the guitar signal, they need, in the monitor mix, which is exactly identical to the FOH mix. Still the problem would remain, that at my (narrow) position, the DBR12 might be overpowering the wedge output of our common monitor mix. We'll see, the wedge still hat not arrived, loads of stuff is stuck in China or on sea, due to corona ... So far, many thanks for sharing your experience!

 

 

Another way I might approach this would be to use the DBR12 as a fourth stage monitor, set up on the side, space allowing, if there is not enough room in front.  Then run the Helix direct to the board via XLR, and the Helix's 1/4 output to the DBR12. Run a monitor mix from the mixer of everything you need to hear except guitar. Set the master volume on the Helix to only control the 1/4 output. You can do this in global settings. That way you can control your guitar's volume output yourself to the DBR12 without impacting the FOH. Bonus, you don't have to share a monitor with the bass player anymore.  Don't know if this would result in excessive latency between the board mix and the Helix direct going into the DBR12? Might be fine.

 

For a completely different solution, compact monitors like the Hot Spot or the Behringers in the links below are very small, can be pole mounted, and provide perfectly adequate monitor mixes in tight spaces. I know bands who use them for all members for both space, weight, and price considerations, and love 'em. 

Behringer B105D 50W 5 inch Powered Monitor Speaker | Sweetwater

Behringer Eurolive B205D 150W 5.25 inch Powered Monitor Speaker | Sweetwater

 

I would be interested to see any suggestions others might have.

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20 minutes ago, HonestOpinion said:

 

Another way I might approach this would be to use the DBR12 as a fourth stage monitor, set up on the side, space allowing, if there is not enough room in front.  Then run the Helix direct to the board via XLR, and the Helix's 1/4 output to the DBR12. Run a monitor mix from the mixer of everything you need to hear except guitar. Set the master volume on the Helix to only control the 1/4 output. You can do this in global settings. That way you can control your guitar's volume output yourself to the DBR12 without impacting the FOH. Bonus, you don't have to share a monitor with the bass player anymore.  Don't know if this would result in excessive latency between the board mix and the Helix direct going into the DBR12? Might be fine.

 

Well, no, a sidefill signal with a louder guitar definitely will not do, because noone else but me is supposed to hear the louder guitar. I need it louder, because I cannot hear myself in the mix sometimes, for instance, when the keyboarder is playing a solo or has a dominant part. I already thought about having an individual monitor mix without the guitar signal and I sure will have a look into it. But I am afraid, that the board will not have capacities for yet another individual monitor mix ... we have three lead singers in the band, each one has "his" mix. If this would be possible, it would, of course, help a great deal.

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I don't understand why you should need to do any such gymnastics with your signal in order to hear yourself well through the DBR by just using it as a typical floor monitor with a customized mix from the mixing board.   That's how these things are meant to be used.  I looked up your Dynacord mixer and it appears to have two aux outputs for monitors which should be adequate for giving you a customized monitor mix through your DBR.  In my band we have three monitors to cover 4 people using 2 aux channels.  The other three people have a common mix setup on their 2 DXR12 speakers and I have a customized mix specifically for me on a QSC K10.2 speaker with a slightly boosted guitar signal and it all works great for everyone.  We can all hear each other and I can hear my guitar quite clearly.

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7 minutes ago, DunedinDragon said:

I don't understand why you should need to do any such gymnastics with your signal in order to hear yourself well through the DBR by just using it as a typical floor monitor with a customized mix from the mixing board.   That's how these things are meant to be used.  I looked up your Dynacord mixer and it appears to have two aux outputs for monitors which should be adequate for giving you a customized monitor mix through your DBR.  In my band we have three monitors to cover 4 people using 2 aux channels.  The other three people have a common mix setup on their 2 DXR12 speakers and I have a customized mix specifically for me on a QSC K10.2 speaker with a slightly boosted guitar signal and it all works great for everyone.  We can all hear each other and I can hear my guitar quite clearly.

 

Your solution would be exactly, what I would be looking for.

Monitor path 1 is the FOH mix. This is the one, our bassist and sound engineer, is controlling the sound during a gig with, always ready to make corrections. Drummer has this one, as well.

Monitor path 2 is for the keyboarder who is not only one of the lead singers, but his keyboard playing relies heavily on hearing himself well. He has the older rights, because all guitarists so far used some real amps, myself included.

 

So, that seems to be the end of the line for an additional, guitar-heavy monitor path. So far, I can only choose between the keyboard mix or the FOH mix - which already includes the guitar signal, although quite often not loud enough. Of course I will look into the mixer's documentation to see, if there might be any chance for a third monitor mix, but I am not too optimistic about it.

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5 hours ago, Axxxeman said:

 

Your solution would be exactly, what I would be looking for.

Monitor path 1 is the FOH mix. This is the one, our bassist and sound engineer, is controlling the sound during a gig with, always ready to make corrections. Drummer has this one, as well.

Monitor path 2 is for the keyboarder who is not only one of the lead singers, but his keyboard playing relies heavily on hearing himself well. He has the older rights, because all guitarists so far used some real amps, myself included.

 

So, that seems to be the end of the line for an additional, guitar-heavy monitor path. So far, I can only choose between the keyboard mix or the FOH mix - which already includes the guitar signal, although quite often not loud enough. Of course I will look into the mixer's documentation to see, if there might be any chance for a third monitor mix, but I am not too optimistic about it.


I'm confused then as to why, if Monitor path 1 is the FOH mix and the actual FOH mix is being sent from the main outs on the mixer, why you wouldn't just use the daisy chain output from one of the FOH speaker to the monitor used by the bassist and drummer, which would then provide two open monitor outputs for you and the keyboard?  Clearly it would be nice to just have more monitor outputs, but if not you'd get the same effect and everyone would get what they want.

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14 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:


I'm confused then as to why, if Monitor path 1 is the FOH mix and the actual FOH mix is being sent from the main outs on the mixer, why you wouldn't just use the daisy chain output from one of the FOH speaker to the monitor used by the bassist and drummer, which would then provide two open monitor outputs for you and the keyboard?  Clearly it would be nice to just have more monitor outputs, but if not you'd get the same effect and everyone would get what they want.

 

That would be, because obviously noone even thought about this possibility ... :-o

You are absolutely right, in the EV FOH (it could be this one: https://www.thomann.de/de/zlx_band_bundle.htm) should be at least one XLR output per unit, which should be able to be used as input for FOH mix monitors. This would leave the mixers monitor paths open to two individual mixes. That absolutely sounds like the solution. Thanks a lot!

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On 2/10/2022 at 1:25 PM, DunedinDragon said:


I'm confused then as to why, if Monitor path 1 is the FOH mix and the actual FOH mix is being sent from the main outs on the mixer, why you wouldn't just use the daisy chain output from one of the FOH speaker to the monitor used by the bassist and drummer, which would then provide two open monitor outputs for you and the keyboard?  Clearly it would be nice to just have more monitor outputs, but if not you'd get the same effect and everyone would get what they want.

 

The one consideration with this setup is any changes to the FOH mix, will also be reflected in the monitor mix. Volume changes being the one you would probably most be concerned about.

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On 2/11/2022 at 9:39 PM, HonestOpinion said:

 

The one consideration with this setup is any changes to the FOH mix, will also be reflected in the monitor mix. Volume changes being the one you would probably most be concerned about.

 

Well, that would not concern me, it would only concern these two musicians, who WANT the FOH mix. With my individual monitor mix no fader move would affect my monitor mix, it would stay as it was at sound check.

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1 hour ago, Axxxeman said:

 

Well, that would not concern me, it would only concern these two musicians, who WANT the FOH mix. With my individual monitor mix no fader move would affect my monitor mix, it would stay as it was at sound check.

 

True dat, would only be a potential issue for them, so if they can manage it to their satisfaction, your mix will be unaffected.

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