Strange MIDI behaviour with Logic

[littleeden]

I use Logic to run backing tracks for solo performances, and have set up PC and CCs to select my Helix patches each time I start a new song, and to switch Helix snapshots in the course of the playback.  It works really well, and on a couple of songs, I've even got it changing the guitar sound, starting loop record, looping and stopping playback all at the same time.  All of which saves me a huge amount of tap-dancing and lets me focus on my performance, which, as a one-man band, is really helpful.

 

However, there is a serious problem.  It all works fine, time after time, if I play through my songs in the order I've set them up on Logic (which matches the order I've put my patches into in the appropriate set list on the Helix), but if I want to jump around and play the songs in a different order, Helix invariably selects the patch which is numerically before the patch for the song I choose.  

 

If I then select the song that matches that patch on Logic, the Helix will again select the previous patch.

 

If I then, further, select the next song on Logic (ie the one I originally wanted), Helix seems to catch up and select the correct patch.

 

I should add that the patch change message is only sent when I start playback for each new song, not when I select the song.

 

Now, I'm not a MIDI expert, but it seems to me logically (no pun intended) inconsistent that the Helix should behave this way.  Logic is demonstrably sending the correct PCs to the Helix when I step through the songs in order, so how can it possibly send a different message at any other time?  But then again, why should the Helix treat the PC differently if I jump between songs?

 

The upshot of all of this is that when I play gigs, I have to stick religiously to the order of songs I've set my Logic backing tracks to, which is not ideal.  Does anyone have any idea what might be going on and more importantly, how to rectify it?

 

[soundog]

Have you used a MIDI monitor (snoize.com) to see what Logic is actually sending to your Helix? (Or you can connect an iPhone running a MIDI monitor in place of your Helix to see what is being sent.) This way you can be certain where the problem is arising. Helix may not be misbehaving, it may be doing what it is told. Test this first, and let us know....

[DunedinDragon]

I use a very similar stage automation system.  I currently use a Morningstar MC8 MIDI controller to manage things now, but originally i did it all through the Helix.  The big difference in my approach from yours is the selection of the preset and the starting of the song are two distinct and individually controlled MIDI operations that I control.  In fact, those are the ONLY things I actually control, Ableton takes care of all the other MIDI interactions in the course of playing the song.  I think because of this my setup runs perfectly regardless of which song/preset I choose.

As I remember when I used the Helix for those interactions I used the command center and used an instant command so that when I changed presets on the Helix it sent the MIDI command to Ableton about which track to use so they were sync'd up (preset and session track).  I then used a separate stomp button to send the appropriate CC command to Ableton to start playing.  One of the key reasons I switched to the MC8 is the Helix instant commands would sometimes get out of sync if I had more than one instant commands and wasn't careful about how I defined them and saved them.  Also it was very clumsy to have multiple MIDI commands defined behind a single button interaction.  Moving to an external, dedicated MIDI controller gave me a MUCH more robust, trouble free system with a greater range of MIDI options which was really necessary once I wanted to incorporate automation of other elements in the performance such as a BeatBuddy drums and stage lighting and so forth.

In my current system with the MC8 I still have two independent physical actions I physically execute for selecting the song, and starting the song.  When I select the song's bank on the MC8 it selects the appropriate preset on the Helix, and selects the appropriate BeatBuddy drum song, and so forth.  That allows me to visually see that everything is sync'd up.  When I then press the Start function on the MC8 it starts the playback of the appropriate Ableton track, and sends the start command also to the BeatBuddy as well as any other startup interactions in need to take at the beginning of a song.  From there, the Ableton track controls all other interactions throughout the song by sending a single MIDI command through the MC8 which may then incorporate several MIDI interactions in one button press.  So, for example, when the backing track reaches the point where the song goes into a bridge, Ableton has a single MIDI command it sends to the MC8 to fire off the Bridge preset which then might change the Helix preset, do a fill on the BeatBuddy and change the lighting controller.

I can't specifically tell you what might be occurring in your case other than to tell you that I had all sorts of anomalous behaviours that plagued me trying to use the Helix as my MIDI controller which were all easily solved by using a full featured MIDI controller rather than the limited and sometimes arcane methods used on the Helix.

[littleeden]

4 hours ago, soundog said:

Have you used a MIDI monitor (snoize.com) to see what Logic is actually sending to your Helix? (Or you can connect an iPhone running a MIDI monitor in place of your Helix to see what is being sent.) This way you can be certain where the problem is arising. Helix may not be misbehaving, it may be doing what it is told. Test this first, and let us know....

 

Thanks Soundog - I'll give it a go and report back.

 

1 hour ago, DunedinDragon said:

I use a very similar stage automation system.  I currently use a Morningstar MC8 MIDI controller to manage things now, but originally i did it all through the Helix.  The big difference in my approach from yours is the selection of the preset and the starting of the song are two distinct and individually controlled MIDI operations that I control.  In fact, those are the ONLY things I actually control, Ableton takes care of all the other MIDI interactions in the course of playing the song.  I think because of this my setup runs perfectly regardless of which song/preset I choose.

As I remember when I used the Helix for those interactions I used the command center and used an instant command so that when I changed presets on the Helix it sent the MIDI command to Ableton about which track to use so they were sync'd up (preset and session track).  I then used a separate stomp button to send the appropriate CC command to Ableton to start playing.  One of the key reasons I switched to the MC8 is the Helix instant commands would sometimes get out of sync if I had more than one instant commands and wasn't careful about how I defined them and saved them.  Also it was very clumsy to have multiple MIDI commands defined behind a single button interaction.  Moving to an external, dedicated MIDI controller gave me a MUCH more robust, trouble free system with a greater range of MIDI options which was really necessary once I wanted to incorporate automation of other elements in the performance such as a BeatBuddy drums and stage lighting and so forth.

In my current system with the MC8 I still have two independent physical actions I physically execute for selecting the song, and starting the song.  When I select the song's bank on the MC8 it selects the appropriate preset on the Helix, and selects the appropriate BeatBuddy drum song, and so forth.  That allows me to visually see that everything is sync'd up.  When I then press the Start function on the MC8 it starts the playback of the appropriate Ableton track, and sends the start command also to the BeatBuddy as well as any other startup interactions in need to take at the beginning of a song.  From there, the Ableton track controls all other interactions throughout the song by sending a single MIDI command through the MC8 which may then incorporate several MIDI interactions in one button press.  So, for example, when the backing track reaches the point where the song goes into a bridge, Ableton has a single MIDI command it sends to the MC8 to fire off the Bridge preset which then might change the Helix preset, do a fill on the BeatBuddy and change the lighting controller.

I can't specifically tell you what might be occurring in your case other than to tell you that I had all sorts of anomalous behaviours that plagued me trying to use the Helix as my MIDI controller which were all easily solved by using a full featured MIDI controller rather than the limited and sometimes arcane methods used on the Helix.

 

Thanks Dragon - I should have mentioned that the way I have Logic set up is that my backing tracks for each song, together with the midi track, are contained in a folder.  To select a new song, I simply use the down arrow key on my Mac to scroll to the next folder (or I select the folder using the cursor).  I have the transport set to 'play selected region', so simply hitting the space bar starts playback.  Within a half a beat or so of the count-in playback starting, I have placed the relevant midi command to be sent to the Helix to select the patch and snapshot required for the start of the song.  

 

However, I think you may have hit on a better way for me to do this.  As I understand, you use an external controller to select the relevant patch on the Helix and at the same time to selectthe relevant song to play back on Ableton.  You then also use that controller to start playback, at which point Ableton starts controlling your Helix (and lights etc) via midi.  Have I got this right?

[littleeden]

7 hours ago, soundog said:

Have you used a MIDI monitor (snoize.com) to see what Logic is actually sending to your Helix? (Or you can connect an iPhone running a MIDI monitor in place of your Helix to see what is being sent.) This way you can be certain where the problem is arising. Helix may not be misbehaving, it may be doing what it is told. Test this first, and let us know....

 

 

As suggested, I have run a midi monitor (snoize), and confirmed that Logic is sending the same, correct pc's every time I start play back, regardless of the order of songs I select to play, but that the Helix is reacting to them differently if I don't follow the order that I've laid out my songs in Logic.  This seems very odd to me.

 

EDIT:

I went back to the midi monitor a second time and noticed that when I selected a new song out of order, Logic sent two midi commands very close together, the first instructing Helix to switch to the patch for the song before, and the second telling it to switch to the correct patch.  Presumably because of the proximity of these two, Helix was not seeing the second command.

 

I'm now in the process of ensuring that there is at least a beat or two separation between the beginning of a song and the occurrence of the midi command to select the patch for the that song.  So far, this seems to be working.  Thanks for your help - I wouldn't have seen this without the midi monitor.

[soundog]

Glad you got that sorted. MIDI can drive a grown man to tears. Without a MIDI monitor,  you can't be sure what is being sent/received. And, yeah, you want to make sure certain commands (especially PC) have enough "space" between them so that the receiving device has time to react.

 

Have you tried other setups for live performance? I've played solo for years (and also use lots of MIDI stuff, though no backing tracks) and used to use Logic, as well as MainStage. I ended up trying and buying Gig Performer. It blew all other live MIDI-based performance solutions out of the water. Very robust, versatile, and stable.

[DunedinDragon]

11 hours ago, littleeden said:

 

However, I think you may have hit on a better way for me to do this.  As I understand, you use an external controller to select the relevant patch on the Helix and at the same time to selectthe relevant song to play back on Ableton.  You then also use that controller to start playback, at which point Ableton starts controlling your Helix (and lights etc) via midi.  Have I got this right?

Exactly!!  It's a bit different with Ableton since it has a Session View which allows me to have the entire lineup of songs in memory, but essentially when I started out I was doing things very similar to how you're doing it.  I was having so many little bugs showing up for various reasons I went to the setup I have and it's been pretty much bulletproof.  A lot of my problems were my own misunderstanding of Helix's MIDI implementation and I was also fairly new to Ableton.  But I quickly ran into a number of situations where I needed to do multiple MIDI interactions at a single point in time, and that's really not a strong point for Helix as a MIDI controller.  That's what lead me to using the Morningstar MC8 which is really the centerpiece of all my automation actions because I can trigger it from either Ableton or from the Helix and it works well either way.  It also allows me to move to any song in the lineup quickly since they're all represented as different Banks and that immediately synchronize my Ableton and my Helix and any other devices that may be song specific.  It also provides an easy way to do things like jump to a specific point in a song or do a repeat of a phrase until I signal it to continue through on the next cycle.  MUCH more power in using a dedicated MIDI controller like the MC8.

[soundog]

@DunedinDragon I just noticed the equation Einstein wrote on the chalkboard. Hilarious!

[littleeden]

@soundog and @DunedinDragon Many thanks to both of you for your suggestions and help.  Everything seems to be working fine now, but I'll certainly check out the kit that you both suggested, as I think I need to move to a more stable solution.

 

The midi monitor was the obvious place to start really, and I'm feeling a bit daft that I didn't think of it myself, but it just goes to show that sometimes all you need is another person to look at the problem, and this is, of course, the great strength of these forums.  Cheers guys, hope you're getting back to gigging now.