Helix with Redbox

[Wondo100]

I am trying to integrate one of my Grandmeisters with a Redbox into the Helix. Not quite sure the best way to go about that. I used to have two Grandmeisters hooked up in 7CM and while really nice...quite a PITA with all of the routing and MIDI. I want to use the Grandmeister in a preset and use the Grandmeister into my PC 212 with IRs. Grandmeister has  a Redbox direct that could be used to capture both preamp and power amp. I also have an IR of the Grandmeister 212 which sounds good. Not sure how I should hook this up. Normally I would use FX loop on Helix and Grandmeister but the Redbox seems like a cool option to take both preamp and power amp section of the Grandmeister through the Redbox and into the PC with IR but still want to integrate the effects on the Helix

 

Any ideas on how to do this?

[rd2rk]

I'd say to run the Helix/GM in 4cm and take the Redbox out into the PC212 Input 1.

The Redbox tap is between the Poweramp and Power Soak.

Should work fine and allow you to compare using the Redbox emulations, IRs on Powercab and Powercab Speaker modes without re-wiring.

You should also be able to route around the GM's Preamp as usual (FX Loop OFF) in order to use Helix Pre/Full Amp models, but being aware of this:

 

Heads Up: You can bypass GrandMeister Deluxe 40’s preamp by routing
amp models into the FX Return. However, when you switch channels its
power amp is re-voiced to deliver the best tone for that channel. This
means every channel sounds different, even if you decide to use only the
power amp! You probably want the amp model’s sound and volume to
remain consistent with your original programming. If so, you’ll have to
remember which channel you used for programming and select it when
you activate the amp model. However, the better option is to program a
preset to do this for you.

 

[Wondo100]

Hey @rd2rk I was hoping you would chime in. This is what I  was kind of thinking might need to be the way to hook it up which you would probably agree kind of defeats the purpose since I could just plug in to my GM 212. However, this set up will allow me to see just how close the IR of that cab comes. Other than that, it just seems like a lot of work just to get the GM integrated when maybe that time is better spent getting the Helix and PC to take the place of that whole rather involved 4CM/7CM of the GMs.

[rd2rk]

Helix + 2 GM's = Stereo + a lot of wires

Helix + PC212 = Stereo with 1 wire and reduced spread

Helix + 1 GM = Mono + a lot of wires

 

Stereo at home/in the studio = FUN!

Stereo at a gig = ?

 

How much do the GM(s) add to your experience?

For me, the stereo thing is great for late night ambient freak-outs.

The one-wire PC212 is very simple and convenient.

I just got a Catalyst 100 and it sounds SO much better than the PC212 (honeymoon factor?), the 4cm wiring is worth it.

BUT...would I get another one for the stereo experience and deal with the 7cm nightmare? (would L6 Link have added SO much to the cost?)

OR...will I keep the Catalyst sitting on top of my PC212 and go with a best of both worlds/horses for courses approach?

The Cat's XLR out to the PC212, though only mono, sounds REALLY BIG, even at apartment level.

Wonder what it would sound like if I took that XLR out into Helix in front of the stereo delays/reverbs and THEN out to the PC212 1/2 Inputs panned L/R?

WAIT...I could use L6 Link for that - one less wire! W/D/W!

Is that even possible? I MUST try that!

 

Decisions decisions. The life of a gear-head. First-World problems.

A little voice in my head says "SHUT UP AND PLAY YER GUITAR!"

Hope this weekend is an "AWAY" weekend for my stuffy upstairs neighbor...

 

 

 

[Wondo100]

Ah, @rd2rk you read my mind. So right on many levels. The thing with 7CM is when you are setting things up, you have to also bring MIDI programming into the equation. However, that being said all you have to do on the GM is grab a knob and get it where you want it, save it and then you can call it up so easily. The front end loading is more work than just working with the Helix and the PC. However, as you mentioned above there is the "It" factor that you found with the Catalyst that brings these questions to mind. I know I would never do the 7CM thing live at least not for stereo, maybe for switching back and forth between amps. With two GMs why would I do that? Because one is a GM 40 and one is a GM 36. They are voiced differently and the GM 36 with Tung Sol tubes sounds really good. Plus one goes to a 212 with V30s and the other a 212 with Greenbacks. This is what I end up doing with the PC 212. I put Greenbacks on one side and Cream Backs or V30s on the other with IRs. Usually not much more than that. Reading what you wrote has me thinking that  I keep coming back to the two GMs. The sound from those cabinets is just so good. Most small live gigs, I would not even bring the Helix. I would just bring the GM, footswitch with volume pedal, tuner and noise gate. All effects from the Grandmeister. Bigger gigs the Helix and probably both GMs in 7CM run mono for the different cabs, run Redbox out to house or mic cabs. At home, you are right the ambient stuff is really cool and I can run that through the stereo set up of the GMs, or just through my Yamaha HS7 studio monitors. PC 212 sounds good but not much stereo spread for that kind of thing. 

 

Gave me a lot to think about. "You're killing me Smalls." 

[rd2rk]

Got a chance to try the Helix 4cm (w/front end FX) 1/4" Out>Catalyst Input/amps XLR (with no on-board FX)>Helix MIC In>Stereo FX>L6 Link to PC212 with 200% Stereo spread.

NICE!

[Wondo100]

@rd2rk That sounds great. I am wondering why you might do that. Does the Catalyst have different amp models than the Helix? I thought the Catalyst was based on some of the Helix models?

[rd2rk]

On 4/8/2022 at 1:34 PM, Wondo100 said:

@rd2rk That sounds great. I am wondering why you might do that. Does the Catalyst have different amp models than the Helix? I thought the Catalyst was based on some of the Helix models?

 

Couple of reasons.

 

The Catalyst amp models are newly designed for the Catalyst, executed with Helix tech. The "Dynamic" is loosely based on the Cartographer.

They sound VERY good, and having the amp controls up top on the Catalyst and the FX controls (all of them) on the Helix is very convenient.

Like using a real amp with six independent and programmable channels in conjunction with a pedalboard!

 

The six Catalyst amps pretty much cover all my needs, and a simple twist of the dial swaps them. If I want to get specific with the Tone Stack settings I can always use Catalyst presets and MIDI, which is what I've been doing up until now. Even if using full presets vs Manual Mode you can still make on-the-fly adjustments, and saving your changes just requires holding down the Channel button for 2 seconds.

 

You can only use 1 of the Catalyst's on-board FX + Reverb at a time and the "deep" settings for the Catalyst's on-board FX are only accessible through the app. Although L6 has provided a very nice mobile version that I run on my iPhone, there's still only 6 of each out of 4 FX categories available vs a bazillion on Helix.

 

So many possibilities, and a legitimate reason to keep the PC212 which, if you've been following along, has not been making me (and many others) very happy.

 

The upside for you is that the GM series is also programmable and MIDI enabled, so you can already do most of this. I don't recall if you have a full-fat Helix or the LT, but if full-fat just take the Redbox out to the Helix MIC In and the L6 Link out to the PC212. So far I've just been using the LF RAW setting on the PC212, but lots of other possibilities.

 

Downside for both of us - Must. Resist. Option. Paralysis. :-)

 

 

[Wondo100]

@rd2rk I have the full Helix and a PC 212 and two GMs and two TM 212s one with V30 and one with GM25. Keep going back and forth between whether I should use the GMs or the Helix with the PC 212. I do not have the space for all of them right now which is my dilemma. 

 

[Wondo100]

On 4/8/2022 at 4:30 PM, rd2rk said:

So many possibilities, and a legitimate reason to keep the PC212 which, if you've been following along, has not been making me (and many others) very happy.

No I have not been following along. What am I missing?

[rd2rk]

On 4/8/2022 at 9:12 PM, Wondo100 said:

@rd2rk I have the full Helix and a PC 212 and two GMs and two TM 212s one with V30 and one with GM25. Keep going back and forth between whether I should use the GMs or the Helix with the PC 212. I do not have the space for all of them right now which is my dilemma. 

 

 

Try a configuration like I described with the GM on top of the PC212 acting as the DRY component of a WDW rig with stereo FX and the PC212 set for 200% spread.

VERY nice!

You mentioned that the two GMs are voiced differently. Try them both and see which one sounds better WDW.

Keep the other one because...

I hear you regarding space. I keep having to move my more and more infrequently used tube amp to have room for the rest of my life!

But I just can't sell it because...

[rd2rk]

On 4/8/2022 at 9:41 PM, Wondo100 said:

No I have not been following along. What am I missing?

 

Just a raft of bugs mostly involving L6 Link and the awful Powercab Edit app.

If you're interested in the details, there's a thread over on TGP's D&M forum called "Line6 Powercab Future".

 

Line 6 Powercab future | The Gear Page

 

Also the usual TGP downers claiming "Powercab sucks!" mostly because they never took the time to learn how to use it properly!

[Wondo100]

@rd2rkthanks for the update. About the bugs with the 212. I think I remember this in the PC app and some issues with the HF driver stuff. I did have the GM on top of the PC212 and was going to integrate it into the Helix in 4CM, but then I sat there and remembered not only will this mean 4CM but also MIDI and every time I would want to dial in a tone on the Helix I would also have to dial in the tone on the GM (use the GM app on iPad) and then store it and then go into command center and set up MIDI control and any CCs and then store it for each of the settings on the GM. With using the onboard Helix amps, it is much, much easier and I actually dialed in a couple of tones that are almost exactly like the GM. Only difference is that the GM212 seems a bit more organic and punchy especially with the GM25s. I don’t digital can quite capture a speaker cone breaking up right in front of you. BUT…the Helix/PC212 is very close. Also, the GM 212 sits on the floor vertices so points at your waist while sitting in front of it while the PC212 was sitting on the other GM212 to get it up and off of the floor (since the tilt back of the PC212 was taking up more space in the room) pointing more at my shoulders while sitting in front of it. Not sure if I should try it on the ground again and tilted back, but it takes up a much larger footprint doing it that way. 

[rd2rk]

I have the PC212 on a cheap Rubbermaid step stool with the Catalyst on top. The whole rig sits on carpet, so between the step stool and carpet there's very little vibration transmitting to the floor. Since I'm only using the Catalyst for it's amps, that greatly simplifies dealing with saving amp configurations. 

Basically, You configure and save basic amp settings on the GM, then every Helix preset is simply a pedalboard. All you need to do with MIDI is call the saved GM amp that you want to use with that pedalboard.

 

Guitar>Helix>1/4" Out>Catalyst In>Catalyst XLR>Helix MIC In>L6 Link>PC212

Helix MIDI>PC212MIDI In>PC212 MIDI Thru>Catalyst MIDI In

Six cables altogether. 

 

Of course, you can complicate your GM amp configurations and MIDI requirements by using the GM's on-board FX, but if you're using the amp/PC212 combination as W/D/W you don't need them. And are they that much better than the Helix FX?

How much more flexible can you get than 128(?) amps in the GM and 1024 possible pedalboards on Helix?

You can always have a few Helix Presets set up for 4cm for if you're playing out and don't want to take the PC212. 

 

Configured as above, you can balance the amp output and PC212 output with the Master on the amp (I assume that the Redbox Out Level is independent/always UNITY), and the PC212 Output with the PC212 Output Knob. I leave the BIG KNOB disabled (UNITY). Since I'm mostly playing at home I have a Korg nanoKontrol with one of the knobs set to CC#7 routed thru the Helix to the Powercab using a MIDI Monitor app. No reaching around and messing with the PC212 volume knob!

 

While the Stereo spread on the PC212 even at 200% with the Helix stereo FX at full spread isn't as wide as having separate amps/cabs, it does a very good job of adding that 3D effect.

 

In case you're wondering, I haven't noticed any problems with the Input Level/LED on the Powercab, it just barely tips into the yellow when I'm playing hard or hit the Boost on the Catalyst.

 

Anyhow, hope some of this is helpful!

 

 

[Wondo100]

All this is very helpful. I am going to go back into 7CM with the Grandmeisters and their respective cabs for a few days to see how they size up to the PC212. Then I will let you know how it is going. 

[Wondo100]

Well, considering all of the potential problems with the HF driver and some other bugs in the system and Line 6 support not responding to anything really Powercab related, I am sticking with my tube amps and the Helix. That is the awesome thing about the Helix, you can run it any way you want!

[rd2rk]

Knowing what you want and having what you need = Ready to Rock!

[Wondo100]

@rd2rkThanks for all of your help. You know I will be reaching out to you again with all of this but, you helped me with a difficult decision because the PC212 is so cool and so convenient, I just do not want to go down the rabbit hole with Line6 on this. Other problems when I had the 2 PC112s they were very reluctant to do anything about this. So, I am moving in the right direction. Also found that the GMs work just fine in an FX loop rather than send/return like you and I had set up before, if the FX loop is line level. I spoke to H&K about this and while technically you would think that the send should be instrument and the returns should be line, it works just fine in a loop with line level and hits the amp just right. I will keep you posted.